How Leaders Can Avoid Burnout and Model Wellbeing

Are you always putting others first at work? You might be heading for burnout — and not even realise it.

In this powerful episode, Toby Mildon speaks with Pam Burrows, known as The People Booster, about her unique CARE model for wellbeing. Pam shares her own burnout experience and how leaders who constantly serve others without taking care of themselves can harm not only their health, but their teams too.

We explore practical ways for HR and ED&I professionals to avoid burnout, manage energy, and shift mindset — starting with ditching guilt and embracing balance.

Key takeaways:

• Why wellbeing is a leadership responsibility.
• How guilt signals poor boundaries — and what to do about it.
• The CARE model: Compassion, Acknowledgement, Reality, Energy.
• The link between self-care and truly inclusive workplace cultures.
• Simple, actionable wellbeing strategies that stick.

Guest highlights:
Pam Burrows has over 30 years’ experience helping organisations boost wellbeing and reduce stress. She’s the creator of the CARE model and author of Burnout Buster.

Guest links:
Pam's Website
Connect with Pam on LinkedIn
Resources: Burnout Buster Book, Monday Motivation signup

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon. Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. Hey there. Thanks ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon. And today I'm joined by Pam Burrows. Now, I met Pam eventually in person at a LGBT in leadership event in Manchester, a community that I'm part of. And Pam was one of the best speakers of the day. And I caught up with her in one of the breaks and I said, I really would love to get you on the podcast. So we made it work and we got Pam on the podcast. So, Pam, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for joining us. And you, Toby. I've been watching you on the internet way back in your BBC days, so I was a bit starstruck to meet you too, so that was lovely. That doesn't often happen, but it's nice when it does. So, Pam, you call yourself the people booster in the work that you do. Can you tell us what does that actually mean? And why is looking after yourself so important when you're leading and supporting other people? Well, the name actually came from other people. So people kept saying, oh, you came into work with our staff team and everybody felt really boosted. And, oh, you really are the people booster. And it was used quite a few times. And I was working with a marketing person who was helping me to brand and to get more business coming in. This is quite a few years ago now. And have I mentioned that people call me people booster. This was quite a... We had been working quite a long time. When I mentioned it, she went, you've already got your brand then. It's come from your customers, which is even better. So I said, oh, I feel a bit embarrassed about using it, it sounds a bit boastful. And she's like, well, you're all about helping people to be more confident, so why wouldn't you be confident in what it is that you do? So I talk a lot about avoiding burnout, reducing stress in the workplace, and people managing their own well-being as best they can. And I do that by making them feel good with various things that help them be more aware, but also with techniques. So, yeah, I basically... My job is to go in and boost people, either individually, in small groups or large audiences. And why is it important, particularly for leaders? Well, first off, because they need to be a role model. I know so many managers who, when I first start working with them, will say, I'm always encouraging my staff to take a lunch break, to not work excessive hours, to look after themselves. I'm a bit rubbish at it myself but I don't walk the talk, but I'm always telling them. And then I talk to staff and the staff say, well, my manager tells me to look after myself, but I see them overworking and skipping lunch and getting very stressed. So I think, well, the unwritten rule is we should all work like the manager does. And so that's the first reason why when you're managing other people, you need to look after yourself, because they will see what you do, and they will take more clues from what they see you do than what you say to them. But also, if you are good at what you do and what you do in the world is helping other people, supporting people, making the business or the organisation run well, you want to be able to do that long term. There's a sustainability issue because we all have this capability of pushing on when we're tired, when we're ill, when we're stressed, when everything is all a bit too much, we can push on. We can kind of find reserve in our tank and push on. And that's an amazing human trait, and it's very useful for survival and for crises situations. But you can't do that all the time because then you have used all your reserves and then what do you use? So it's about being able to be in the game for the long term and to model that to your staff. That's really cool. So at the LGBT in leadership conference, you were talking about the burnt sausage story, which was really cool. Can you just tell us what that story is and how it connects to burnout and putting everyone else first? It's just a bit of a metaphor, really. How many people do you know, often mothers, but not exclusively, who when they're cooking and burn a sausage will keep the burnt sausage for themselves and give the well-cooked, the properly cooked sausage to everybody else, or the popped egg, the fried egg that got the popped yolk, or the bigger slice of cake will always go to the other person. And again, that's the fabric of a society. A society where there's kindness and inclusivity is where people are prepared to do that. The problem comes when, that's again, when it's all of the time, when you are constantly giving yourself the raw deal. If people are in an organisation where they're constantly trying to make sure everybody else is okay, but not looking after themselves, there's an imbalance. And if somebody is self-employed and all they care about is what they're doing for their customers, they're not going to be able to do it for that long. Again, it's about that longevity, about being able to continue what you're doing. So if you're in a situation where you need to give of yourself, where you need to give the other person the biggest slice, or the sausage that isn't burnt, that's a beautiful thing. But it can't be the way that we do it all of the time. There needs to be a balance. It reminds me of that example, like when you go on an airplane and they do the safety announcement. They always say, make sure you put your mask on before helping other people. And it's about making sure that you're looking after your own well-being. Yes. My colleague, Brooklyn, has got this really great saying. She talks about filling your cup. What are the things that fill your cup rather than deplete it, which I really like. Yeah. One of the other stories that you told at the conference that really stuck with me was about one of your previous roles where you were driving back and forth between home and another city to work. And it was quite a long commute. And then at the end of the day when you retired, you weren't really looking after yourself. You were filling yourself up with crisps and sweets. Can you just tell us that story, what was happening for you back then and what did you learn from that experience? Because it sounded like it was quite a pivotal moment for you. It definitely was in lots of ways. But the key thing was that I was driving. It was about a two-hour drive, and it was over the Moors to Greater Manchester. So, the weather was always an issue and it was such a long drive. And when I was doing it every day, it just really wore me out. The job that I was doing, I was a local authority trainer and a lot of my work was safeguarding training. We had to read case studies of child abuse and talking to social workers on the training courses about what their experiences were. So it's quite a gruelling job. And then the big drive and it was my first time in a full-time training job in that way. And, yeah, it was quite overwhelming. And I think the thing that I now use to help other people to learn from my mistakes, as it were, is that what I was doing then when I was on the journey home and I filled my passenger seat up with crisps and pop and sweets, it was about keeping my energy up for the journey home, but also giving myself a sense of reward, that, well done you today. That was really hard and you deserve something as a treat. But of course, what I was doing wasn't a treat at all for my body. My physical self was being deprived of nutrition and the things that it needed. So it's about being aware of your go-to thing. So when you're having a difficult day or your energy is low, or you're trying to push on, what do you go to to really boost yourself? And I remember years ago now there was a sign on the motorway that said, water will keep you more awake than a coffee will. Of course, caffeine gives you a buzz and makes you wide awake, but then you drop off the other side as the caffeine levels drop in your body. You actually get more tired than you were to start with. And similarly with sugar and all of those things. So we have these go-to things and you might know what yours is. Kind of the thing that you go to. Is that something which will boost you or is it something that eventually will create even more burnout? So it's being aware of those things. And in that job, it really was a pivotal moment because the drive was getting me down. I wasn't all that happy with the job itself. It wasn't really where I wanted to focus. And I was also in a relationship with a very lovely, but nevertheless, man. And I knew that I needed to come out. So I came out as lesbian and I got a job much nearer home. So I came out, changed my job, stopped the drive, and my health just massively increased. But at one point I was off work with serious stomach problems, which were due to all the junk food, but also the stress that I was experiencing and just that not living authentically. I think that's an overused word these days, but sometimes it is the exact word we need. That authentic life, when you're masking, when you're pretending, when you're pushing down who you feel that you really are, that in itself creates stress and quite a lot of exhaustion. So, yeah, it definitely was a massive change in my life. That was something that really resonated with me at the conference because you were talking about you were in a relationship with a man and then you came out as a lesbian. And I'm a gay man, but I came out quite late in life as well. And it was after a near-death experience as well, where I felt like I wasn't living my authentic self as well. I was spending a lot of effort really hiding my true identity. But it's like when you get in touch with yourself and you start to live your truth, then things really open up for you. And when you were talking about the fact that after a tough day at work, you were treating yourself to pop and snacks and things like that. I've been reading the "Atomic Habits" book recently. And one thing that really stuck with me in that book was how it's very easy going after the bad habits, if you like, are much easier than us going after the good habits because of that instant gratification. You get instant gratification from eating a bar of chocolate, but you don't get instant gratification from drinking a bottle of water or going to the gym, even though we know it's good for us in the long run. Yes. Absolutely. And I think that that book by James Clear is a really good one because he talks about some things which are uniquely his content, but he also brings together lots of things about habits that have been around for a while and it's a good catch all of those things. And that whole thing about when I do sessions on forming new habits and making them stick, and actually if people are interested, I do have a, it's like a worksheet and you answer the questions and it helps you plan for a habit that you really want to make stick. And I'm happy to make that available if you have the facility to do that. But the but the key thing about it is we have to make our healthy habits as attractive and easy to do because often we set ourselves, especially, a New Year's resolution, we often set ourselves, it's too high an expectation. It's not something we're really excited about doing, it's something we feel we should do. And shoulds are very pressurising and judgmental, and they're rarely things that we just dive into. And we have to make it as easy. So for instance, if you are going to go to the gym, have your gym clothes right by the bed. It's easier to put your gym clothes on than it is to wear something else. Make it something that you're going to do with a friend so that you're really excited about seeing your friend as well as doing whatever the activity is. All of these things that we can put in place to just balance it up really. One of the things that I did when... A couple of decades ago I gave up smoking, and I wrote on the cigarette packet, this will not make me feel better. And in the first instance, when you when you hit that craving, the cigarette, it feels like it's going to make you feel better. But I wrote on the box, it actually won't make me feel better. And sometimes after a difficult day, just some really simple, very quick five minutes of stretching the body out after all the things that we've been experiencing and tension that you might be holding in the day can just release some of that. When you're tired at the end of the day, but you haven't actually run a marathon, you've not actually exhausted yourself physically, it's all been psychological or emotional, then just stretching can release the tension of the day. And you find actually, your energy is there. It was just underneath the tension of the day. So there can be quite quick ways of getting some wins and feeling better. But we're not generally taught those things. Even a few deep breaths when you might have gone for a glass of wine or shopping on the internet or whatever it is you might do, a few deep breaths and a glass of water and then just say to yourself, is that actually going to help me? Will that make me feel better? What's going to make me feel better in the long term? So we just put a little gap between us and that knee-jerk reaction for the habit. That's really cool. Thanks for sharing those tips. One thing that you mentioned at the conference was that quite a lot of people feel guilty about asking for what they need or taking the time out for themselves. Why do you think that is and how can we get better at it? I think it's a societal thing and I think it is again about balance. Though, it's a useful survival technique that everybody isn't born selfish. Well, we probably are born selfish to start with. It's all about, give me what I need when you're a tiny baby and you just scream for it until you get it. But actually, if everybody grew up to be completely selfish, we wouldn't have much of a society and we wouldn't have the connections that we enjoy. But it's again, it's about balance. So I often joke that my mum taught me how to burn out. Oh, thanks, mum. Cheers for that. But actually what she was modelling to me was how to make sure everybody around you is okay, how to be a kind person. And so it's about balance. If it's out of balance, then you feel guilty when you're just doing something, even, you know, I'm going to have to stop the meeting right now because I haven't eaten today. I'm just going to grab myself a sandwich. You might feel guilty about that, but this is something that you need. So it's really finding that balance. You wouldn't be massively selfish and totally get what you need at the expense of everybody else 100% of the time. But neither should the opposite be true, that it's always about everybody else and never about you. It's about finding that happy medium. And when we feel guilty about it, I like to be able to train people into not feeling guilty about it at all. But if that's tricky, a little kind of hack is that you can say to yourself, this isn't selfish, this is fuelling me up in order to help even more. So you can feel less guilty about it by saying, if I get some lunch right now or if I have a bit of a rest, then I can be even more helpful to everybody else as a result of that. I was working with a team in Leicester yesterday, and I was getting them, I gave them all little cards to write on, and they were giving themselves messages which remind them of the content after the event. And one woman, she wanted to write down, I work hard, so acknowledging that, but I can take a break too. And I'm like, ooh, can we just edit that slightly? Does it need to have a but? Can it be an and? And this is great for communication in general, actually. One of my favourite tips is, wherever you're going to say but, see if and will do a more positive job. He comes from Derby, but he's actually quite clever. It's very different from, he comes from Derby and he's clever. So in the end her sentence was, taking a break is part of the job. It's work too. And just realising that looking after you is a role that you need to take on. It's an important part of you giving your best in the world. And perhaps it's a matter of reframing so that maybe those feelings of guilt are a signal to you that a boundary's been crossed and that you're neglecting your own needs in the moment, perhaps. Yes. Absolutely. And if ever you feel really kind of discombobulated, that something doesn't fit well for me. One of my favourite things is you put one hand on your heart space and one hand on your belly and you breathe for a few moments and just say, what's the right thing right now to actually tune in? Because often guilt is getting in the way of you actually realising what's going on. And sometimes we feel guilty because we've been so busy that actually slowing down feels really weird. It feels wrong, like actually stopping. Or perhaps at the weekend, let's say you've got a day to yourself, but you think, I've got to do a job first, so I feel like I've earned the right to just sit back and not do anything. So it's looking at those... I think that's a really good point, Toby, where you you look at that guilt and you go, okay, where's that come from? What's the message in this mess that I've got myself into? So you've created the CARE framework or the CARE wellbeing model, sorry. Can you just talk us through what CARE stands for? C-A-R-E. And how it helps people avoid burnout? Yes. So the model itself came from experiences of my burnout, my mum's burnout, and lots and lots of people that I ended up working with. So it's not something that I invented overnight. It's something that came from my observations. And what I observed was that there were four key things that people in burnout were all doing in every single person that I spoke to. These four things were true. So I thought, okay, so these negative things that are creating or are making worse this burnout, if we flip those into the opposite, we've basically got an antidote. So the four things are, the thing that I noticed was that everybody I met in burnout were not compassionate enough towards themselves. They were compassionate towards everybody else, but not themselves. And that lack of compassion for themselves was exacerbating the problem. Just as we've talked about already, they were constantly getting the burnt sausage, they were constantly putting everybody else first. So the C of the CARE model is for compassion towards yourself to be kind in your mind, to notice what you need, to notice that kindly rather than being cross with yourself for needing to take a moment out for yourself, to listen to what you need and to meet that need. So not just to notice that it's 3 o'clock and you haven't had lunch yet, but to do something about that. So to listen to your needs kindly in the way that you would anybody else. It takes me quite a while sometimes to bring people around to the idea of self-care and to looking after their well-being. But a really quick route is to say, what would I do for somebody else? And just do that for yourself. So then the A of the care model is A for acknowledge. So in burnout, what people were doing was pushing on, seeing all the things that hadn't been done or hadn't gone well, and trying to cram everything in without actually realising how much they had achieved. So on an ordinary day, you might set out with the intention of doing, let's say, five or six things. If something emerges on that day, somebody else needs your help or there's some kind of crisis, you get to the end of the day and you look at your list of things and you go, God, I didn't do that. I'm beating myself up, I didn't do it. And you'll have seen me, Toby, with my inflatable hammer that I used to demonstrate this. And you can spend an awful long time and it can stop you from sleeping well, beating yourself up over what you didn't do that day or what didn't go well. But actually, why didn't you do those things? Let's look behind that. Well, actually, you didn't do those things because you were doing all of the other things. You were dealing with a crisis, you were dealing with a power cut or some tech problems, you were dealing with other people in distress, you were helping other people who had got things that they needed you to do. Let's count those up. And when you start to acknowledge those, you get a burst of serotonin, the feel-good hormone in the body. And then you get to the end of the day and you feel more satisfied. And counting those up at bedtime and writing them down in a little book will help you sleep better. There's some science behind that. So that's the A of the care model is about acknowledging what's going well, and who you are, what you bring to the world, your superpowers and celebrating that, being proud of your purpose. Then the R is all about time and energy management. It's R for reality. Because in burnout, what I saw was people would be cramming their diaries, overpromising and then underdelivering. And then of course, they get to beat themselves up about underdelivering. So in the R for reality is basing your schedule and what you say yes to on the reality of what time have you got, what energy, what resources, what capacity have you actually got in reality, rather than basing it on your good intentions or your habit to be a people pleaser. What can you actually do? And within that, to create sanity spaces where you, you were talking earlier about your colleague who talks about filling your cup. When are you going to do that? When are you going to have some breathing space to either do what you need to do and also to create space for the things you're not expecting, but you just know something is going to come up. And then the E is really important because it's about energy. In burnout, people are rarely eating nutritiously, hydrating, taking good rest. So those three things are important for energy that we eat, hydrate, and we take rest and sleep well. But then I add a fourth one, which isn't essential for survival, but actually is the purpose. What's the point if we don't also do the fourth thing, which is to plan for joy? So what are the things that are actually going to light you up, fill your cup up, make you feel recharged? I love a wood fire. I'll sometimes even burn sticks in the garden. Just a tiny, tiny little bonfire so I can smell wood smoke and it gives me a boost. Or time with friends or time with an actual paper book and a candle and kind of some soft music in the background. What is it that lights you up? And how do you plan for joy to make sure you've got something to look forward to? One of the things in burnout that is really common is that you stop doing the very things that would recharge your batteries because they're things that don't matter to anybody else. So you're only letting yourself down when you cancel those things that you really were looking forward to. And we get into this loop of, it's all about the pressure and other people's needs and not ours. So those are the four parts. And, well, I have two books, one on the CARE model, but I have another one which is called"Burnout Buster." And there is a way to get a free digital copy of that, which goes through some of the things I've just talked about. Well, I can give you some links for that. So, yeah, just a way for people to access that and remind themselves because we get into these negative habits and we have to remind ourselves of a better way of doing things. What I like about the CARE model is it's super practical, easy to remember, and we can definitely link to your worksheets and your book in the show notes of this episode. So the person listening to us right now can download them in a click. So obviously this series of podcast interviews is all about equity, diversity, and inclusion. So how does self-care and confidence link for you to creating a more inclusive and supportive workplace for other people? Well, inclusivity is about working together and understanding what each of us needs is a really big part of that. You could be, especially if you're in a supervisory capacity, you could be really interested in other people's needs. If you're not looking after your own, then we're not doing that together. It's about it becoming a culture. So if we have a culture of well-being where every single person cares about their own needs being met and their colleagues' needs being met, and customers or whoever else they're dealing with, members of the public, whoever that might be, it then becomes a culture. A culture for each person, culture for small teams, the whole organisation, and then society at large, when all of this stuff matters, that we speak compassionately to each other, but also to ourselves. So we're modelling that, that we acknowledge progress. There's a brilliant book called "The Progress Principle" which is about what managers really can do to motivate people. And it's not about money, interestingly. And to plan our time with being in reality and to manage our energy, all of that stuff means that if we're in a good position to feel well, then as a team, we're less likely to be judgy, we're less likely... We're more likely to cut each other some slack, and to understand what's going on for each other. So I think well-being. And sometimes I go into teams who are really disjointed and having problems, or maybe they've always worked online and they're not really connecting as a team. And instead of what I used to do years ago, which is some really tough conversations where you get teams to have those difficult conversations and try and build some bridges, I don't bother with that anymore. I just go in and I say, let's look at well-being and how we speak to ourselves and how we speak to each other in terms of well-being. And magically, it can glue a team together with that well-being culture. So, it can be an easy way towards helping people to realise they can be their full selves at work, they can talk about how they're feeling, they can have their needs met. And it's kind of signalling as a workplace, this is who we are. And if you get well-being right, then all the other stuff is so much easier. Well, if you care whether I've had lunch or not, you probably care how I feel, whether I'm authentic at work or not. Those things for me are a real blend. It's about growing together. And that's true inclusivity. It reminds me of, whenever I do inclusive leadership workshops, I talk about survival mode and mindfulness mode or mindful mode. And very often when leaders are in survival mode, they're working under tight deadlines, they're working under pressure, they're stressed, they're cutting corners, they're not giving people time, that kind of thing. But when they're in mindful mode, they're at ease, that things are flowing a bit more gently, they're giving people time, they're listening properly and deeply. And it's much nicer to work with a mindful leader than a leader who's kind of stressed and working in that survival mode. Absolutely. Now, the penultimate question is, what does inclusive growth mean for you? And is there a link between that and well-being for you? I think there is. Inclusive growth for me is about who I connect with. And as a self-employed person, I do work with my girlfriend. She does all the techie background stuff that I either can't do or don't want to do. And that's lovely having somebody to work alongside. But actually what I need for me in my inclusive growth is to connect with people who do a similar job to me, so other professional speakers. And I chose very carefully who I wanted that to be. So people who could, who I saw, I perceived as ahead of me in some ways so that they had something to teach me. But also that when I approached them and said, can we have regular meetings to help each other, that they saw that there was something I could help them with as well. And so I'm in a couple of situations with groups of people, we call it a mastermind group, where we get very, very deep and honest about where we're at personally, and we know everything there is to know about each other's personal lives and we help each other build businesses. And I think that for me is inclusive growth because I have been in mastermind groups where we've only scratched the surface of who we are and I was afraid to cry and didn't want to show weakness and didn't want to feel vulnerable and now I'm in groups of people who, they're absolutely, yeah, let's cry together, let's celebrate together. It's about the whole of who you are. And that for me is so valuable. It's more meaningful than the best business guru who might be able to help me to grow my business or grow my personal development. But if I can't be all of who I am on a good day and a bad day, then it's meaningless. So that's what those words... I don't know whether that's the right answer, but it's certainly what makes me think about inclusive growth has to be warts and all, as it were. Yeah. And there's no right or wrong answer to that question. It's a question that I ask everybody when they come on the podcast. I've done over 100 episodes now and everybody answers the question slightly differently. So it's good to get your thoughts on that. Now, before you go, Pam, if the person listening to us right now would like to follow your work, read your materials, reach out to you if they need any help with well-being in their organisation, how should they do that? Well, I'm very easy to find on the internet. I'm kind of like a bad penny. I turn up wherever you look. So my name is Pam Burrows and you can find me at pamburrows.com. There's a link on there to email me, and that's pam@pamburrows.com. I've also got a channel on YouTube where you can absolutely fill your boots. You can even use them for your organisation if you wanted to. Videos which show people different techniques. There's a bit more about

the CARE model on there. And then every Monday morning at 6: 32:41

00 A.M I send out a Monday motivation message, which is just a little bit of a story about what I'm doing, training my young puppy and other things that I'm doing or any work that I'm doing at that time. And then I always add in a well-being message and a video with a technique of, it might be confidence or what to do after a difficult day or forming new habits, whatever it might be. And that's completely free to sign up for that. You can do that on the website, and that will also give you access to a hidden web page that has the digital copy of my"Burnout Buster" book and lots of other resources that you can fill your boots with. So all of that is free and easily accessible. Brilliant. And I've just realised I'm not actually subscribed to that Monday email, and I really should be. So I'm going to go and subscribe myself so I can get your wisdom in my inbox every Monday. Oh, bless you. Well, I shall give you a mention because I'll be including what I've been doing this week and that will include you. Thank you. In fact, just before we do anything else, I'm going to just take a photo of us on screen. Smile. And I'll add that in. Brilliant. Well, Pam, thanks ever so much for joining us today. It's been really great to hear your stories again. You're such a great storyteller. I think that's why you really stood out as one of the best speakers at the LGBT Leadership Conference that we met at. And all of your tips and tricks are really helpful in helping to manage well-being and avoid burnout, which is a real problem. Particularly people working in the field of ED&I. I hear a lot of HR practitioners, EDI practitioners, reach burnout because they're really passionate about trying to make their organisation better and more inclusive. They're not often putting their needs first and then they reach burnout, because they're having to deal with so much frustration as part of their role. So taking away some of the strategies that you've shared, I think would be really helpful for them. Excellent. Yeah. HR people are my... Yeah. I kind of bow down to them. They're always about everybody else. And it has to be about them. In fact, in lockdown, I started doing online spas for HR people who were helping everybody else but not looking after themselves. So we did a little online spas for HR people. Brilliant. That's such a good idea. And I think they should continue those spas actually, beyond the lockdowns. So, Pam, thanks for joining us. And thank you for tuning into this episode of this inclusive growth podcast. Hopefully you found it interesting and helpful and taken away some practical things that you can start to apply to yourself and also introduce to your team as well. If you need any help and support around well-being and avoiding burnout, then please do follow Pam's work and reach out to Pam through the website and the channels that she's mentioned. And if I can do anything to help you on your ED&I journey, then I'm only an email away. So, take care, look after yourself, and we'll see you on the next episodes, which will be coming out very soon. Cheers. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.