Could you spot the signs of radicalisation in an employee’s home life?

Could you spot the signs of radicalisation in an employee’s home life?

 In this moving and eye-opening episode, Toby Mildon talks to Sarah Hardy from Exit Hate, a charity helping individuals disengage from extremism and supporting affected families. Sarah shares her personal journey after her teenage son was radicalised by a far-right group and how that experience impacted her work, wellbeing, and relationships.

They explore the vital role of HR professionals and line managers in recognising signs of distress, showing empathy, and supporting employees dealing with radicalisation at home. Sarah provides practical advice on how workplaces can become safe spaces during difficult times.

Key takeaways include:

• Early warning signs of radicalisation affecting family life.
• The emotional and professional toll on parents in the workplace.
• Practical ways managers can support affected employees.
• Why compassion and non-judgemental conversation matter.
• The critical importance of early intervention and signposting to support.

Guest highlight:
Sarah Hardy, Family Support Programme lead at Exit Hate.
Website: https://www.exithate.com/
Visit Exit Hate page on LinkedIn

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon. Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. Today, I'm joined by a really interesting guest. Her name is Sarah Hardy. And I came across Sarah because I read a really great article in the Positive newsletter about a charity called Exit Hate and they do some really, really good work and the more I looked into them, the more I realised around the effects of extremism that we're experiencing here in the UK and how it affects people within the workplace. So, Exit Hate, they are a UK registered charity that helps people disengage from extremism and supports their families. And the charity themselves provide non judgmental and confidential support from a lived experience perspective, meaning that many of its volunteers are former activists or have family members who have been involved in extremism. And the charity helps in three ways. So they provide individual support by providing guidance and mentoring for individuals who want to leave an extremist group or ideology, primarily focusing on extreme right wing extremism, but also assisting with all forms. They also provide family support. So they have a support program to help families understand why their family members have become involved and how to best support them in moving away from extremism. And then they also do loads of education, so they create lots of educational materials and they offer training sessions to communities and professionals on the signs of radicalization and how to challenge extremist narratives in a non confrontational way. So Sarah, thanks for joining me today. It's lovely to meet you. Thank you very much for having me. Cool. So Sarah, if we could just dive straight in, could you just share a bit more about your personal story and what happened to your son when he was a teenager? Of course. So, my son was sadly radicalized when he just turned 15 years old. He was actually introduced by a friend who shown him a meme on his phone and that meme basically blamed immigrants for the lack of accommodation for military personnel. And that really angered my son. And seeing my son's reaction, he was then invited to join a far right group where he was encouraged to voice that frustration and the anger. And that's where the radicalization process began. Now, I wasn't aware of his involvement for quite a long time. He was encouraged to stay quiet whilst that process went on. And I didn't find out for about 16, 17 months as John was never vocal about his opinions. Not to me anyway. When I did find out, I was absolutely mortified. And there was lots of signs that he was involved that once I realised later, unfortunately, it was my lack of education and awareness about radicalization and extremism that allowed to continue. And once I did find out, I knew that we needed support. But as his mum, I felt like I needed to protect him. And I felt like reaching out to the police or to college would potentially get him into trouble. And I realised now that was completely wrong. And my silence only enabled and allowed him to stay within those movements for a lot, lot longer. Now, I was extremely lucky that a safeguarding lead at college noticed some concerns with John and she actually reached out and asked me if I wanted to add anything. I knew I had to share enough to validate her concerns. And so I did just that. And she went on to referring to the Prevent Program. He then went through the channel panel and he was given an intervention provider. And with the support from the intervention provider, my son was de-radicalized. And he went on to have a successful career and we had a successful outcome. However, his involvement did cause a lot of damage, not only for my son in particular, but also for us as a family unit and for my external family members as well. That sounds really difficult. And it sounds like obviously that happened over quite a long period of time as well. What would you say was a real particular impact on you and your family? His involvement just divided us as a family. I think it was hardest in the early days, at the beginning, because although we knew something was wrong, my son has always been a very outgoing, very kind, bubbly personality. And we saw him change into a very angry, bitter, resentful young man. And although we didn't know what the problem was, we knew there was a problem. And we was running around in circles trying to discover what was beneath all of that. But when we found out, I think the division was the hardest thing. It destroyed my relationship with him. He was trying to push his narratives on me, and I was trying to convince him otherwise. That caused a lot of friction. He was very angry at me because I wouldn't believe in what he believed in. And it almost destroyed us and our relationship. So, this podcast is all about supporting people within the workplace. So when you were going through this experience, what was going on in your work life and how did it affect you at work and with your employer? Well, coming from quite a small area, a lot of people know everybody. People just know people. Everyone knows everyone's business. And especially when my son became very vocal about his opinions, I certainly felt that within not only the location where I lived, I did feel a lot of judgment from other people. But because where I worked at that time, there was only a small number of staff. And I worked in retail as well. So a lot of those people from my local town would come in where I worked. And that certainly had a huge impact. Not only was I ashamed, I was very scared. I felt a lot of judgment. And there was even concerns about my safety and what anything was being said about that. So, it really did have quite a knock-on effect and it made work very difficult for me at times. How soon or how quickly did your manager become aware of what was going on? And when they did find out what was happening with you and your family, how did they respond? I think because I'd worked there for such a long time, my manager knew there was something not quite right anyway. And because my son used to call in work and visit me, he'd seen the change in attitude with how my son spoke to me. He was very disrespectful to me. And I felt a lot of judgment from my boss at the time. He made comment on how rude he was. I remembered there was an incident when John had actually left and was getting support. And I remember quite a passive-aggressive comment from my boss about John and his involvement. And it just made me feel like I was nothing, like I was nobody. And those feelings that you have as a parent anyway, you feel like a complete failure when that happens to you. And after, when someone who you look up to, someone you're employed by them, and they're making comments about your family. And it was just awful. It was just not nice. Work wasn't a nice place and nor was home. That just sounds really, really difficult. And in hindsight, if we were to kind of look back to that experience at work over that period of time, what kind of support do you think your employer should have put in place for you or for other employees who are having similar experiences? I think what would have been beneficial if he'd just showed a little bit of compassion and showed a little bit of understanding. And I do think looking back, he probably understood the significance of my situation a little bit more than I did at the time because at the time I think I was just surviving and trying to get through one day to another. When you're a family and you're going through something like this, there's no clarity to any situation. You're just seeing everything around you fall apart and you can't make sense of it. And maybe he could see a little bit more clearer than I could. And maybe if he did shared that with me, maybe if he had just shown a little bit more compassion, a little bit more understanding and provided maybe resources that would have been helpful or beneficial to me during that time. And just a little bit of advice. Like I say, we're only a small team, we're all parents to boys. I did have a very different experience with my colleague that I worked with. Having three boys herself, she did give me a little bit of encouragement and a little bit of support. But I think it hit different coming from him because he was my boss and everybody wants to please a boss, don't they? You want them to look down as you as an asset to the company, the organisation, and I felt that by his remarks, I wasn't that at all. I felt like I was an embarrassment almost to the organisation. That's really difficult. And for you to feel like that way at work is really difficult. And what I'm hearing is that actually, if he just showed more compassion, more understanding, was brave and actually had a conversation with you about what he was observing and also took the initiative to maybe just Google some resources out there, that that would have actually been really, really helpful for you at the time. Absolutely. And if he'd approached me without judgment, I think that would have made a big difference as well. Because like I say, when you're going through that, you are depleted. You've got no energy. You think everybody's judging you and you are getting it from all angles. People are very quick to judge. And for someone that had known me for such a long time, who knew me, this is not like a neighbor who didn't know me too well that lived doors and doors away. This man had worked with me on a regular basis for a long, long time. And I'm talking for over a decade. So perhaps if he'd approached me with less judgment, as well as a little bit more compassion, then that would have empowered me a little bit to be a bit more proactive about going forward and getting support in the future. Because in fact, all it did is shut me down even further and caused me to withdraw more from everybody else. Because if I was getting that kind of reaction from people that close to me, what would the reaction be like from other people who wasn't so close to me and who didn't know me that well? You work now with Exit Hate, and you're doing some really fantastic work with them. What are the early signs that HR teams or managers should be looking out for with their employees who might be struggling with something serious going on at home and a family member getting involved in radicalization? I think some of the signs definitely to look out for is if a member of your staff starts to withdraw, if they appear quite anxious or uneasy, if they isolate themselves away from others, if there is a change in demeanour or their behavior, and even things like if normally they're coming in on time. I know there was quite a number of occasions that I was late for work because there was incidents and run-ins with John. It was only minutes, but it was quite out of character for me at the time. Like I said, I became quite withdrawn. I was having more time off ill for family matters. My mental health really declined. If you're hearing rumors or things from other staff members about incidents that are going on or things that are being said, don't just take it as gossip and don't encourage that. Instead, pull that member to one side in a quiet place, not in front of other staff members, not in front of other teams, and just sit them down and have a chat with them. Offer them a little bit of compassion, a little bit of understanding, and just give them a safe space where they can talk openly and freely without fearing that not only are they losing the family and they're losing the child, but just reassure them that they're in a place of safety and it's not going to compromise their position at work, that you're there to help and not to judge. Brilliant. I mean, what you just said there is brilliant because it's really quite practical and it's just about being a decent human being, I think, in terms of things like showing compassion, being empathic, being flexible, that kind of thing. It really goes a long, long way, I think. So how have you and your son rebuilt your lives now? And did work play any role in that recovery? Thank you for asking. Yeah, we've fast-forwarded quite a number of years now. When my son started by telling his story with a hope to help other people understand the signs and dangers of radicalization and extremism, and then when he joined Exit Hate Trust, they mentioned the Family Support Program and John had mentioned this is something that I know my mum would love to get behind. And so they reached out and said to me, would you be willing to take part? And I was like, absolutely, 100% yes. I left my previous employment to focus on what I do now. And I think it's only with the support of the team that I've got now, John and I not only been able to kind of navigate the recovery of radicalization and extremism, but we've been able to rebuild up our life, our relationship. And they've helped me to understand the journey that we both experienced. Because even up until as far as him leaving, I still fully didn't understand what we'd been through. It was just quite bizarre, really. I knew the terminology, but I didn't really know much about it. So Exit Hate Trust have been an absolute staple for helping me not only understand the process and train me, but just help me on that path to recovery and with John as well too. I mean, unfortunately, it's not such a positive story for all families. I watched a video of one of your colleagues who unfortunately she lost her son, didn't she? He went over abroad and ended up dying because of his involvement in extremism. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that? Nicola is an amazing lady. She's not part of the team over at Exit Hate Trust. She is a trained counselor and she did have her own organisation. But yeah, sadly, she lost her son. Now, we both did a video together. Both our boys were the same age. Both got radicalized into different organisations. My son was the extreme right wing and sadly Rashid was radicalized into ISIS. Very similar stories. We had no aware of their involvement until they was deep within it. And sadly, Nicola found out far too late. And by the time she found out, he'd actually left to join ISIS and he died soon afterwards. And like John, he was just a beautiful young boy who got caught up in something absolutely horrible. And sadly, it shows the difference that early support and intervention makes because I am very lucky that I get to hug my son now. And sadly, Nicola doesn't have that opportunity. And she's such an amazing woman and such an amazing mother. And she's worked tirelessly to spread awareness about the dangers of radicalization and extremism to prevent other mothers going through and other families going through that, something that she sadly had to experience. So just to kind of round things off, if the person listening to us right now works with HR professionals or managers within that organisation, I think one of the things that... Certainly the work that I do with managers is often they are worried about saying the wrong thing. They don't know how to approach difficult subjects. They don't know how to have awkward conversations. And so a manager might really struggle to talk to a team member about a difficult experience that they are going through in their private life as well. What's your advice on how a manager could start such a conversation so that they can start to begin to support somebody who might be going through a difficult situation like you've been through with your son? I mean, I support families now and thinking of a mix because the approach I think needs to be very similar. I think you need to, A, it's important to, when you have that conversation, not to do it in the staff room in front of other people, not to do it where you're at the risk of being overheard and embarrassing or humiliating the individual that you're talking to. It needs to be in a quiet, comfortable place. And I think approach with compassion, approach with reassurance is not going to affect your career. It's not going to affect your job and it's not going to affect any opportunities. And then provide compassion and just say, look, I'm aware that not everything appears to be okay, whether you appear a little bit distracted. Even say I've heard a few whisperings, I'm here without judgment, I just want to provide support. Is there anything that you want to share? But I think reassuring someone that they're not in trouble is not going to jeopardize them in any way, shape or form. Let them talk and then just say, what can I do to help? Is there anything I can do? And maybe that might need a little bit more time. Do you want to help looking for resources that may benefit you? Or even you can do that off your own back. Look for resources and just say, look, you don't have to use these, but thinking about what was said, maybe you'll find these useful or maybe you don't want to use them. That's entirely up to you. Just know that I'm here for you if you need to talk about anything. Even offer to go to meetings or anything like that with them. I'll be there to make those difficult phone calls, such as when they engage with Prevent or Act Early, just because doing that alone can be really difficult as a parent. Thanks, Sarah. And again, it's just really sensible, practical advice that you've given there, which is brilliant. Are there any final words that you want to say to the person listening to us right now? I would just like to say to anyone listening, if you do know or are involved with anyone that's involved with radicalization or extremism, please don't feel like you're on your own. There is support organisations out there that are available that can help you through this. That is, if you get that support, then you can turn this round. This doesn't have to be the end. If my son and myself can get through this, so can everybody else. You just need to make that call, call Act Early, make Prevent referrals and seek help from relevant organisations. You'll not regret it. And I know it's difficult making that call, but once you do, it will be the best thing that you've ever done and your life could change for the best. Thanks, Sarah. I've really enjoyed hearing your story today. And thank you for being so open with us about your experience and giving such great practical advice as well. And I think like you say, it's probably that very first phone call, which is the hardest thing that you have to do. But once you make that phone call or you have that difficult conversation, you can get the support you need. So Sarah, thanks ever so much for joining me today. Thank you very much. And thank you for having me. Yeah, you're very welcome. You're very welcome. And if you or someone that you know is affected by extremism, you can contact Exit Hate or other professional support services out there. So for lived experience support, you can contact Exit Hate charity via email at info@exithate.org or visit their website to access online support. For immediate confidential advice and support, especially for family members or community members worried about somebody, you can contact the National Act Early phone line and their phone number is 0800 011 3764 if you're in the UK and they are open 24 hours a day. And if you are a professional and you need some advice, search for your local Prevent contact details online. Please note that Exit Hate is not an emergency service. So if you believe that somebody is going to harm themselves or others, please contact the appropriate emergency services. So, thanks for tuning into this episode. Hopefully you found it really insightful. I certainly have. And hopefully also you've got some really practical advice that Sarah has given you around what you can do to support individuals who are going through these difficult experiences. So, thanks ever so much for tuning into this episode of the podcast. And I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which will be coming out very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.