From Lived Experience to Inclusive Strategy: Fiona Daniel’s EDI Journey

How do we move from performative diversity to real inclusion?

In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show, host Toby Mildon welcomes inclusion enabler and new associate Fiona Daniel. Drawing on her extensive career and deeply personal experiences, Fiona shares why real inclusion begins with asking, “Do I see myself here?”

This conversation goes beyond the surface, challenging exclusionary myths and exploring the emotional impact of systemic bias. Fiona also shares practical tips and outlines the strategic workshops she delivers to help organisations embed inclusion into their business goals—not just HR policies.

Key takeaways:

• Why seeing yourself represented is the foundation of inclusion.
• The myth that inclusion excludes others—and why it’s harmful.
• How to align DEI with business strategy using PESTLE analysis.
• The crucial role of leadership accountability in driving inclusion.
• Simple questions to ask for more inclusive decision-making.

Guest highlight:
Fiona Daniel, Founder of FD2i, brings decades of EDI expertise from her time in banking and now through her consultancy work.

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to The Inclusive Growth show with Toby Mildon Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. Hey there. Thanks ever so much for tuning into this episode of The Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Midon and today's episode is slightly different to normal because I'm going to sit down and interview one of my new associates, Fiona Daniel. Now, I've known Fiona for donkey's years. I was working at the BBC at the time and Fiona worked in banking and we had similar jobs in that we were in house diversity and inclusion specialists. But we now run our respective consultancy companies and Fiona has joined our team as one of our associates, bringing all of her knowledge and wisdom to help our clients. So, Fiona, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for joining us. You're welcome, Toby. You're welcome. It's a pleasure. So, I gave a little teaser there in terms of how we met, but could you start off with telling us a bit more about who you are, what you do? Maybe you want to add a bit more detail in terms of how we met? Yeah, definitely. So, who am I? It's a real deep question. Who am I, Toby? So, like you said, you know, I am a inclusion enabler. That's how I talk about myself. I'm an inclusion enabler. That is a beautiful Black woman who's a carer, who's passionate about people really, and care a lot about people. That's who I'd say that I am. And I like saying this aspect about being the inclusion enabler because really what I'm about ties in with who I am a little bit, which is all about transforming businesses inclusively. And when I think back to how we met, if I remember correctly, even it was those many years ago, I think it was at a conference or something as well, that was talking about inclusion. I think it was talking about different aspects of diversity strands and we just connected and bonded. And I think one of the things that stayed with me in our first, our very first conversation was that aspect of business and, you know, and inclusion and business going hand in hand, which was really refreshing for me because not many people speak that how we do in terms of, you know, inclusion in business and also the end user being the customer or whoever that may be. So, that's always been something that's always stuck out in my mind, I think, in terms of how we met and just how we connected and the various topics of conversation that we bonded on. And that was definitely one of them for sure. That's why I like working with you, because we both want to connect EDI to business strategy, business growth, business transformation. It's not one of those window dressing exercises or the box ticking exercise that so many organizations tend to start off doing. Now, how did you get into working in inclusivity in the first place? Do you know? There's two stories really. There's a number of stories, but there's two main stories. I think there's the main story, I suppose, in terms of being accidental really. So, just walking around where I used to work before at HSBC and looking around at things like posters, big campaigns that we used to do, and thinking, where am I? I don't see myself, so why am I even working for this great company? And I don't see myself in any of these images. And I remember the first campaign that this really came to mind with was around business customers and I thought,"Well, there must be Black business owners, there must be, so why am I not seeing them? " And that's really, for me, like I said, this accidental aspect because I started to have conversations with individuals, including CEO at the time saying the same thing. So, that naturally just became, I think, Toby, a passion in terms of talking about inclusion without actually using the words inclusion. It was more around for me about seeing myself and what about other people? Do other people see themselves? And then I think the second story I was going to share that always comes to moment when I think about these types of questions around what got me into this was I think it's lived experience, just personal things that have happened both in work and outside of work. But in work in particular, going for, you know, a rigorous process for talent, to be part of a talent pool and to be told, yes, Fiona, your feedback was excellent, your 316 feedback was excellent, all positive, lovely. Nice strokes, Toby, to then be told, but I'm not going to put you in this talent pool because you lack gravitas. And I said, "Oh, okay." And then the second aspect was, "And to be fair, Fiona, I don't really see that many Black people in senior leadership roles and there must be a reason for that." And whilst that wasn't, it probably wasn't meant in a negative way, but the way I received that was, well, hold on a minute, that doesn't add up, does it? That you're giving feedback in one hand that's saying you're excellent, you're really strong in all of these competencies and capabilities. But I, this one person has got their destiny in my hands to say, but I don't see. Because I don't see people like you in that senior position. I don't think you should be there and there must be a reason for that and you lack gravitas. And there was.... I mean, there's a longer story to all of this, but for me, that it really did hit me and I thought,"Hold on a minute, this isn't right." That one person's judgment can, even though you've got the data and the evidence in front of you, can still overturn the skills expert and expertise and talent that somebody has, even with the evidence there. And I thought,'I don't want anyone else to go through this. I really, really don't, it's not right." So that's how I think I fell into it accidentally and became an advocate and champion and a doer. Yeah, that's racism right there. It is. If we're calling it out specifically, it is racism. It is, yeah. But at the time, what was really strange is at the time is that my... I had fantastic managers, to be fair, leaders who were fantastic sponsors of me, and they called it out for what it was. But I, at the time, personally, I didn't take it, I didn't even get to that level of thinking. I think I was still more in the shock, Toby, of hold on a minute. Somebody can say that based on the evidence it was that I couldn't get my head around it. My head couldn't wrap around the fact that we make these judgments about people. Even though we can have the evidence that says they are a top performer, they are performing this way because of these capabilities, these competencies. We've got evidence here, here, here and here. But because they don't see themselves. Never mind, never mind that I don't see myself because they don't see people like me. It was, well, then you can't be there because there must be a reason for that. Well, what is the reason for that? And is it racism? Is it a microaggression? We could sit here and label all these things, fundamentally, it's wrong. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Fundamentally it's wrong. And you don't want other people to go through that experience. Absolutely. Because how many people probably get told that in their career that I don't see you, or we're making judgments and we're holding talent back when we're always challenging ourselves in organizations saying, "Well, we haven't got the talent." Yeah, you have. But if things like that are being said to people and it can have a knock on effect. It didn't have a knock on effect on me this way, how I'm going to say it, but for some people, it impacts their confidence, their imposterism. They start doubting themselves. I was just like, "No, I'm not having it." So, but yeah, it was just for me, this moment of reality of, no, no, no, not on my watch, is that going to happen? And I think that's made me stronger as a person, but also made me give back in a way of mentoring, encouraging and supporting other people on how to navigate that and how to not take it. It's hard not to take it personally because that said more about that person than it did about me. You know, it was their biases, their attitude. What I wanted to navigate was, how do I navigate that? I'm going to meet lots of people like that all my life. So, I can't let that one person's perspective. So, now that you're working as an independent expert, what does a typical day look like for you? If that's ever... If that is, you know, if a typical day working for yourself is, is such a thing, that is. I don't think there is a typical day. I think every single day is totally different. I wish I did have a typical day because I think it would make life so much easier. But generally speaking, I think a typical day is a day that is actually in itself quite varied. And I think that's what I like because I can be one minute in one day, part of the day, doing consultancy within the same day, I can then be designing a workshop. Within the same day, I can be having great peer to peer conversations with yourself and others, within the same day I could be in a meeting with CEOs around strategy and how they can anchor DEI on their strategies. So, there is no typical day. I think the typical day for me is a day that is actually quite ironic, diverse in itself because every day is different, but in one day it always reminds me of the weather. You know, sometimes in England we can have four seasons in one day. Well, that's my typical day. And what is an inclusion myth that you often like to challenge when you're working with clients? Good question. Gosh, there's probably so many. So, which book can I choose? So, I think an inclusion myth, as I do often challenge, is the myth that inclusion is about other people. It's about those people over there don't know who those people over there are, but it's about those people over there as opposed to. Actually inclusion isn't about a set of people over there, it's about all of us, but in different ways. So, it often comes up particularly in any organization, but particularly I often hear this inclusion is exclusionary, which always makes me smile, because you think, well, how can inclusion be exclusionary? But it's because, like I said, it often comes up in any conversation of it's not about this type of person, whether that's the White male, whether that's carers. It's about something else. It's always about something else. That's a massive myth. And I think that is driven by probably lots of different things really. I think one is probably how they've experienced it in their organizations, how it's been done, the misunderstanding of what it actually really means. Sometimes it is a feeling of the way it's probably been implemented or executed. It can be about strands of people which can then exclude people sufferings. A number of different reasons, but that is a big challenge and a myth that has to be quickly dispelled because I think the more we have this is a demons situation, it really doesn't bode well for implementing and driving inclusion and changing cultures with inclusion in mind. Totally agree with you. When I worked at Deloitte, our team was called the Respect and Inclusion team because there was an emphasis on creating that culture of respect and inclusion. And we dropped the D, the D word, the diversity word from our team. Because I see this a lot with organizations. I think when we're talking about diversity and difference, it is starting to create divisions and it starts to turn conversations about them and us. Whereas I mean, diversity really is the outcome of doing everything right. But loads of organizations, they start with the diversity, they say, "Oh, we want a more diverse workforce because we know that the team and the organization will benefit from having a diverse workforce." But that's the output. You really have to do the hard work of creating the equity, the equality, creating a culture of respect and belonging and then you will be able to attract and recruit and retain a diverse workforce a lot more easily. 100%. I often talk about it as, diverse inclusion, it's an inside out approach. So, if you're doing the inclusion, the culture and all those aspects, then it will leak outside where you can do exactly what you just said, Toby, you can better attract, you can better retain, you can better serve your customers. But what often happens is the outside is done first. So, the outside is all about the diversity. We need to get more of X, we need to get more of Y, we need to get more. But what they don't think about is, well, we can get all those people, in some cases, they can't get all those people in. But, we can do all of the recruitment, but hold on a minute, they're still leaving. What's going on? Why? What's going on? Why are we still not being able to serve our customers effectively? Because you just focused on the difference, but you haven't really focused on the behaviors and the mindsets that embraces the difference. And actually youth has the difference in a way that is embodying those skills, the expertise, the value add, as opposed to, oh, actually, let's tick the box and let's just bring people in who fit, who just do this. And I can say, guess what? I've, I've ticked my diversity box. I've got a Black person, I've got a gay person. I've got... It just doesn't, even now, even just recently I just hear conversations where somebody introduced themselves and they said, "Oh, I'm so and so, and I have got this disability, I am gay, I'm a man, and blah, blah, blah, " and I tick all of those boxes. But I'm a great advocate for inclusion. Not bad talking sentence off like that, you know. And that's what I'm saying. We think we're doing.... Sometimes we think we're doing the right thing and we are, but sometimes we think, oh, that's how we need to be because of, to me, in the noise that surround us. And we then just be, we even then talk about ourselves as a tick box, as we put ourselves in boxes. So, you and I both know that senior leaders play a critical role in creating an inclusive culture because they are the custodians of an organizational culture. What is it that you really wish senior leaders would do more of or say more about in order to be more inclusive as leaders? For me, I think to be.... What I'd love to see is for them to be more accountable. That's what needs to be done, more of ownership, accountability, and to give inclusion the respect and kudos that it deserves, the same way that they do other key topic areas in their business. So, whether they're talking about finance, whether that's about information security, whether that's about audit comms marketing, et cetera. That's what I would really, really love to see more of and really understanding that it has a bigger impact across the business than they realize. That's what I would love to happen. And I'd love, I would just love to be able to walk into someone's organization, sit down with a group of senior leaders, and they all turn around to me and said, "Guess what, Fiona, you don't need to convince us. We don't need that buy in. You know, we're going to sell it to you." Yeah, that's what I would love to happen. So, how do you personally define inclusivity and has your definition changed over the course of your career? I don't think it has because I think it goes back to what I was saying before. For me, inclusion is really about, do I see me? Do I see me? Has that changed over the years? No, because if I'm doing something, whether that's in watching TV, whether that's in the books that I read, whether that's in the places that I go to, the football matches, whatever it is, do I see myself? If I don't see myself there, then that's telling me that's an indicator of exclusion. So for me, that's what inclusion is, is do I see myself? Because if I don't, then I'm not included. I'm not a consideration. If I'm in meetings, I look around the table and I'm the only person of color or the only woman, et cetera. I'm thinking,"Well, I don't see myself, so I'm here, but I still don't see others like me." So, that for me has not change. I don't think it will ever change. Because I think ultimately that is what inclusion is about. Even when people sometimes do see themselves, they've got to then ask the next question, I think, which is around, well, if I see myself, who am I not seeing? Who's not included? Yeah, no, I love that. I love that idea around representation because when I worked at the BBC, it was a very visibly diverse organization to work in and there were many, many visibly disabled people like me and lots of disabled people in senior positions that were role models to me. And then when I rejoined the City, there were no visibly disabled people in my office. And it was, for me, it was such a stark difference. And it makes you feel like belonging is really linked to representation. Like you say, if you can't see yourself somewhere, then it really harms your sense of belonging. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think the extension of that as well for me in that definition of inclusion is around, well, if I didn't do see myself, do I have a voice? Can I be myself in that environment? Do I have access to resources, information, am I able to speak up? You know, all those extra things then matter because it's one thing being able to see yourself, but then at the same time, if I'm not truly included, then seeing myself isn't enough, is it? So, I think it's, for me it's that two sided coin of what is inclusion? Well, do I see myself? And the second aspect is, and if I do see myself, I'm actually really wanted? Do I really belong? Do I have the opportunity to be me? I don't have to mask or code switch or do things that to me I'm having to shrink myself, which I would never do anyway. But it's a challenge because I shouldn't have to keep mentally thinking, well, do I shrink? Do I not? You know, I'm trying to say, yeah, it's like it's important.... Suppressing or trying to change parts of you in order to fit in. I found myself in situations where I've almost been like apologetic about being disabled and I shouldn't have to apologize for being myself, which is a disabled person. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But we find ourselves, don't we, sometimes doing that? So, we have that inner voice conversation, say, "No, stop it." So, what is one practical thing that you would recommend that the person listening to us right now could start to implement in their organization straight away? I think anyone could easily implement tomorrow. Whether that's by email, whether that's in their meetings or whether that's on a screensaver, whether that's in their customer interactions, whether that's in their product and design, the simplest thing they can do is say and have it blatantly written down going off in flashing lights. Do I see myself and who is missing? So, for example, if I'm in the meeting and we're talking about a decision to, I don't know, to have job courts, redundancies, which is quite rife at the moment. So, I look around the table and I should be asking, "Actually, are we the right people to be making this decision? Who is this decision impacting? Where are they? How do we make sure we get that voice in?" Because if we're not doing that, which often happens, we see it in the outcome that our decision is going to have a disproportionate impact on whoever you are excluding. So, for me, that's exactly what I mean. It's about, you know what? If we're not even doing that practical thing of just asking who is missing and I'm gonna see myself, because if I can see myself, then go, "Yeah, I'm all right here. I'm okay, I can see myself here." But if I'm not seeing myself, then have you thought about, what about this type of person? What about someone that's working this way, these hours working with a disability? What about individuals have been here 20 years, 10 years, five minutes? It's not just about the diversity that people think. It's not just about the protected characteristics. It's about a number of different things. But we often, when we're making decisions, we don't put the pause button on of our brains to say, actually, do you know what, are we even the right people to make the decision that we're trying to make? And are we really thinking about who's missing what is missing from this decision? So, we can make what better inclusive decisions? Essentially what we're saying here is can we bring in additional perspectives on the problem that we're trying to solve right now? Absolutely. Because we know that we've got an experience bias, which is where we falsely think that we accurately see the world, and then we make decisions based on what we falsely think is true. And the antidote to that is to bring in different multiple perspectives. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But the challenge, I think, is sometimes the organisations get caught up in the world of, well, we haven't got time, we're too busy. My answer to that is you might not have time, you might be too busy, but it's going to take you more time and cost you a lot of money to actually put it into, to rectify the outcomes when you get it wrong. So, yeah, for sure, that's what I would say. Could you just give us a very quick overview of the type of workshops that you do for us? Because the whole reason of having a network of associates and their relevant expertise is so that we can provide a better quality of service to clients. But can you just give us an overview of your kind of specialist workshops? Yes, I'll just give a few. So, I like to focus on how we met, really, so, business and inclusion in business. So, I tend to focus on, for when we're working together and working with clients is taking a strategic approach in divert inclusion and using a seven step framework to enable that to happen. The second workshop then is a bit of an extension of that really, which is all around applying a DNI perspective on your organisation, which is really about putting that lens onto everything. People might think, "Well, what has audit got to do with inclusion?" But it's really putting that lens on all parts of your organization in enabling, I suppose anyone working in the organisation to see actually this has an impact on what I do and how I do it. And then the other workshop that I do is all around creating those inclusion strategic objectives. So, focusing on objectives that are around inclusion but anchored on to the strategic objectives of the organisation because otherwise, what's the point? It'll just be a bit random. So, but how do I create them? How do I develop those what feeds into that? So, they're the things, our favorite topics around data. What is our data telling us, how do we dissect that data, how do we look at our internal picture and our external picture, the things like your PESTLEs. But how do you put a DNI lens on some of those things that's really happening externally that then in turn can really then help create your DEI objectives. So, they're the three key ones all around inclusion in business. Brilliant. I love how you've just mentioned PESTLE, P-E-S-T-L-E analysis. I love it because whenever you and I do joint training, we do take the participants through a PESTLE analysis. And it's really funny because they always say to us,"Oh, I did this as part of my business degree at university and I've never thought about using it with a D and I lens." And we're like, "Yeah, it's a bit of a no brainer, " like, why not? So, talking of PESTLE, we are currently, I feel, and when I talk to other D and I practitioners working in companies, it is a really challenging environment at the moment. There's a lot of political turmoil. We're seeing a rise in fascism, for example, and the mandates that are coming out of the White House are not helping us. The economy is really tricky at the moment. Companies are cutting budgets and they're not spending as much money on EDI programs and projects. We're seeing real problems in society with the rise of fascism and things like that. We're seeing the introduction of AI and the pros and cons of AI and all of that kind of thing. So, given all of those pressures which a lot of people are experiencing. How do you take care of yourself when things are tough in our line of work? For me, I always take care of myself by sometimes just switching off from the noise. I think if we don't sometimes we can just, it can be a bit overwhelming. There's that whole list you were just saying, I mean, even listening to it, it sounded exhausting, so. And when you're living in it, as we all are, I think it's really important just to take those moments of just switching completely off. I come off social media, I sometimes don't even listen to the news. I love the news. That's what keeps me updated on what's going on. But sometimes I just take that moment just to just go to know what I just need to switch off a little bit and keep my feet firmly in reality. And that's with my family. That's who keep me grounded in who I am so I don't lose sight of me. But also I think the natural thing for individuals like ourselves is we are natural, probably helpers, solutioneers. So, you naturally want to help and I do. And what I've had to learn is to step back sometimes, just go, look, I can't solve everything. I can't heal all the world's ills, and just take a step back and just remember that I'm just one person just trying to do a little bit of good each and every day. What's bringing you joy right now? What's bringing me joy right now is writing my book inspired by yourself and others who you've been telling me for years, write that new book, Fiona. So, I have finally started to write my book and that is bringing me joy. I do a little bit each day, really. I would love to just have a holiday where I can just go away, switch off completely and just right away. But yeah, it is absolutely bringing me joy. I never thought that it would actually, because I've been putting it off for so long as you know. But yes, it's definitely bringing me joy. Brilliant. I'm really pleased that you're writing the book. It's. It's going to be good when it comes out. I hope so. So I've got some quick fire questions for you. What is a book that everyone should read? From an inclusion perspective do you mean? It could be anything. It could be anything. But what is a book that you love that you think everyone should read? Do you know what? I would say there's two. One's a professional book and the other is a non professional book. So, one of my favorite films is The Wizard of Ozz. And the book is brilliant. And the reason why I love the book is because it took me a while, I think I was probably just leaving school. The meaning of it really dawned on me, and it's something that I've carried, I suppose, ever since, which is about the fact that, we've got the Tin man, the Lion, Dorothy, and I've missed out somebody, I'm sure. Scarecrow. Scarecrow, that's it. And the Wizard, of course. Yes, and the Wizard themselves. But, you know, but in those characters, when you're reading the book, they're all looking for something. And the moral of it, for me is, and the book says this much better, but the moral of it is we're all looking for something, but we already had it within us in the first place. And I think for me, when you read it, it is such an inspirational book because its simplicity is so powerful in that we're looking for. I'm looking to get my heart, a brain. And it's like, "But you've already got those things." And, yeah. So, for me, it's one of my.... It is such a just a brilliant book. And the film's brilliant and Wicked is good and all those types of elements that come off it from the film and the book. I love it. So, I think that's one that everyone should read if you want to. If you're feeling sometimes where you feel like you're doubting yourself and you think, I just haven't got the strength within just to know that you actually have. You've always got it. Sometimes it just takes somebody else that the wizard or somebody else to unlock what you've already have. So, yeah, that's one. And then the other is a professional book that I've had for years and years and years. And it's a book called the Guide for Inclusive Leaders. And what I love about this book is because it talks about, and I've talked about this a lot, the insider, outsider dynamic. And it really breaks it down in a way for people to quite simply understand privilege in a practical way, in a work way, and how it can manifest itself and how when you're in a insider group, how you can shape the world, how it all looks well for you, the world, you don't have to change much. Everybody else has to change, you don't have to. You're being in the in club. But then it talks about the outsiders. And then what I love about this book, it provides practical steps and guidance and how to have conversations with insider outsiders and all these different elements of it, because it breaks it down into further elements. And it really has stayed with me. And I do use it a lot to do workshops and put my own spin on it. But I think for leaders who are out there who think this doesn't affect me, it does, because we all have, you know, we can. We're all insiders and outsiders in different ways. And I would urge anyone, if you haven't read it, it's about 20 years old now, but it's still as relevant today as it was when that first came out. And that's by, oh, Joerg Smitz or Schmitz and Nancy Curl. Cool. Okay. And who is somebody that's influenced you? A little bit cliche, my answer, but it is genuinely true. And that is my parents, for sure. They have really influenced me without a shadow of a doubt, when I think about, you know, let's think, it's October. We're in October, aren't we? So, this is Black History Month, and I think the theme is all around standing firm in power and pride. And they've always taught us to stand firm in power and pride. And what that meant for them and what they instilled in me and my siblings was around standing firm in who you are, not having to shrink yourself. You shouldn't have to keep changing and shrinking yourself to make other people feel comfortable with you. I love that. That's just how they've taught us. For me, it's something that I carry all the time. And this power element is my father because he always taught us to not underestimate the power that we have. And that power can be to change. That power can be to make a difference. That power can be to speak up. We all have power in different ways. So, I 100% stand on my Windrush generation parents who taught me that life is precious, but you can't just exist in it. You have to be part of it. You have to be, again, it sounds corny, this does. But you have to be the change that you want to see. Just because you may not be in that position and there aren't others there. Don't sit there waiting. You go for it. You be that first, you be that second, third, fourth. Just go for it. So, they have definitely had a big influence on me and who I am, how I am, as a person. That's cool. And what is one skill that you're working on at the moment? I think it's the skill of writing a book, I think for sure. And it is a skill because you start off with... For me anyway, I love, I like writing generally speaking, as you know, but it starts off with this huge, you've got everything out in your head and it's huge and huge. And the skill for me is really get into the essence of what it is that I'm wanting to say. What is it that I want people to pick up and learn and take away? And that skill of condensing salient points is for me a massive learning skill in writing for a book. And what that has also led me to do is despite probably some of my waffly answers in our conversation today, but what it has led me to do is actually be more succinct in my writing generally, even whether that's by email. So, I think it's a skill in itself for sure, in writing a book and then how to write it in a way that you have power. It's going back to that word power in words, but not many words. And what's your go to comfort activity? My go to comfort activity. Anyone that knows me well or has read any of my musings on LinkedIn or other places will know that my activity of choice is music. That is my go to. That that brings me peace, that brings me joy. It could be any music. I've got to have headphones on, be in the zone, just chilling out. That is my go to. And also actually when I just need my brain just to relax, it's music for sure. But also watching programs that just make me laugh. So, comedy programs. I love my comedy. So one of my favorites at the moment, it's been on for a while now. So, it used to be Friends, I used to... I mean, I know Friends inside out every episode, but now it's the Big Bang Theory and another old program. Anyone listening will think, what is wrong with this Fiona, is the Golden Girls. These are my guilty pleasures. These are my guilty pleasures that I'm confessing to the nation. But yeah, that's my go to just to switch the brain off. Relax. That's my meditation and mindfulness for me, just having those, just literally having no noise, just having just quiet moments of recentering and regrouping with me. Brilliant. Well, Fiona, we've come to end of time, unfortunately. It's been really great catching up with you. Thanks for your time and as always, learn lots from you. We're on the same page when it comes to aligning EDI with business strategy and business growth and you've shared some really practical things that the person listening to us right now can think about and start to think about implementing in that organization. So, thanks very much. Thank you. And thank you for tuning into this episode with Fiona and myself. Hopefully you found our conversation interesting and have given you some ideas that you could take back to your own organization. If there's anything that Fiona and I can do to support you on your EDI journey, then we are both available on LinkedIn. So, just look for Toby Mildon or Fiona Daniel and also go to our website, mildon.co.uk where you can learn more about the work that we do. And until then, there'll be a new episode coming out soon. So, take care and we'll see you soon. Thanks very much. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.