Why Inclusion Means More Than Compliance with Ruben Carol

Breaking down barriers to real disability inclusion.
In this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show, host Toby Mildon speaks with Ruben Carol—Mildon’s newest associate consultant—about his powerful journey from stroke survivor to actor and disability inclusion expert. Ruben brings a wealth of experience working with major organisations such as Transport for London and C2C Rail to remove barriers and create inclusive environments.

Together, they explore how the social model of disability transforms organisational thinking, why “treating everyone the same” is a dangerous myth, and how a culture of equity—rather than compliance—enables true belonging. Ruben also highlights why asking (not assuming) is key to inclusive practice, and outlines practical training offerings that help embed inclusion across teams.

Key takeaways include:

• Why equity means more than treating everyone the same
• How to make workplace adjustments that go beyond compliance
• The importance of psychological safety in inclusive leadership
• Why employers must create space for employees to express their needs
• Practical tips to foster belonging and dismantle assumptions

Guest: Ruben Carol
Associate Consultant at Mildon
🔗 Ruben's LinkedIn Profile
🔗 Ruben's Website

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon, and we have another special episode for you today, because this time I'm joined by one of our new associates, Ruben Carroll. And I met Ruben when I was organizing some disability awareness training for a client of mine that organizes festivals all over the world and they wanted some disability awareness training. And so I brought Ruben in as an expert. And what was quite fun about working with Ruben and his team was that we brought in some disabled actors and we also had our token non-disabled actor, where we could role play some different customer experience scenarios involving disabled customers and how you should or shouldn't respond to different requests or complaints that you get from disabled customers, and it was a really great learning experience for everyone involved in that training day. So it was so fun working with Ruben that I thought we had to go further, and Ruben has just joined the team as a new associate. So Ruben, thanks for joining us today. It'll be really good to learn more about you in our conversation. Yeah, so my name is Ruben. I am originally from Los Angeles. I am luckily one of the associate consultants at Mildon, proud to be part of that team. I specialize in disability access and inclusion and have worked closely with organizations like Transport for London and C2C Rail to remove barriers and embed inclusive practices. As a wheelchair user myself and a stroke survivor, I bring both lived experience and practical expertise. And besides the training, I also write columns for magazines. And like Toby said, I am an actor. So you might see me on a billboard that might be coming up soon. And I speak publicly to shift how society sees disabled people and how to inspire meaningful change. And I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. Ruben, how did you first get involved in inclusion work? I think you gave us some hints there, but where was the start of your professional journey? People think that disabled people automatically know everything there is to know about disability rights and most of us gain our impairments later on in life, and we have to learn it just like everybody else. So I didn't intend to become a disability equity trainer, but when I found how unfair society was and put the blame on disabled people, I knew I needed to change society or try to help change. And I met a woman by the name of Barbara Lasicki, and she was one of the people that helped form the DDA and also got protests in the streets in the 90s to get the ramps on buses. And she taught me the social model of disability and it just progressed from there. What's a typical day look like for you when you wake up in the morning and you're trying to improve society for disabled people? What's your kind of normal day? I don't think that I have a typical day. Some days I wake up and I might have to deliver training or the other days I find myself doing research about latest legislation or I could be working with a client designing new training that focuses on highlights that they want to cover and my input with the direction that they want to teach, what they want to, what kind of training they want to deliver. So it could be any one of those. And what's an inclusion myth that you often challenge in the work that you do? I think that when an employer says, we treat everybody the same here, so we're inclusive, I think that's a myth. Treating everybody the same actually ignores the differences. And I always say that there's eight billion people on this planet and one thing that we all have in common is that we're all different. We need to recognize it and celebrate it. People have different needs. So equity means recognizing those differences and adjusting accordingly. So if you apply the same-for-all approach, you risk designing systems that only work for the majority and continue to exclude disabled people or other marginalized groups. So I think that employers need to be able to treat individuals as their own entity and don't try to... One fix is good across the board. Even you have a wheelchair user and their needs could be different than another wheelchair user. Absolutely. I think we're helped by the Equality Act, particularly as disabled people, because there's the duty to make reasonable adjustments, which is all about identifying and removing barriers. And I don't know about you, but I try to extend that thinking with my clients into other areas, so I talk about making workplace adjustments for people who are non-disabled. So you might be a working parent and you would benefit from flexibility in how or when you start or finish your day if you've got caring responsibilities, for instance. Yeah, one thing that employers need to do is they need to create a safe environment where people can feel comfortable sharing what they need to do their job to the best of their ability. And I know for disabled people, it takes an average of about three years for someone to actually ask for a reasonable adjustment, to feel comfortable enough to say, hey, I'm disabled and I could do my job better if I had X, Y, or Z. Yeah. And that's three years of somebody potentially struggling, not being able to perform at their best. So that's going to be damaging for an organization's productivity. Absolutely. So what is one thing that you wish leaders in businesses said or did differently to support disabled people? I think that inclusion shouldn't be just about compliance, it's about belonging. It reframes EDI from a tick box exercise to something rooted in culture and values. And I think that I just want employers to think of individuals and making these adjustments, not just compliance. And how do you personally define inclusion? And has this definition changed for you over the course of your career? It's a good question. And inclusion to me means that creating an environment where everyone can belong and thrive, not just get by or do something, I want people to thrive and not just be present. And it has shifted over the years from compliance to something much deeper, rethinking how organizations are structured and how leaders behave and how policies are designed. And like we mentioned before, it's about equity, not just about equality and recognizing the intersectionality, the way different aspects of identity interact to create unique barriers and opportunities. So inclusion has grown from being an HR issue to being a cultural and leadership imperative. Definitely. Yeah, I really love that point. And what's one practical tip that you've got for the person listening to us right now about building more inclusion, particularly with regards to disability inclusion? I think one practical tip I always give for building inclusion is ask and don't assume. Too often, organizations guess at what people need. Oh, we've helped somebody who has a sight impairment before, so this is going to work for you. No, you need to ask them and how it impacts them and it can lead to tokenism or missing a barrier. Inclusion grows when we effectively listen to staff and act on their feedback, embed those insights into everyday practice. So, for example, rather than assuming how a neurodivergent colleague prefers to receive information, I'd ask them and then adapt. It's just a small step that can create a bigger sense of belonging. Can you just give a quick overview of the kinds of workshops that you do for us? The person listening to us right now might be interested in how they make their workplace more disability inclusive and the kind of interventions that we do just to raise awareness or change behaviors. So, I offer three different training sessions. Now, these can all be customized, made bespoke directly for the client because of what they want to get out of it, but one is just the typical disability equity awareness. So, it's learning the social model and what barriers disabled people face. And another one would be inclusive customer service. So, it's understanding legal responsibilities under the Equality Act and defining what a reasonable adjustment is. And then the third one is disability inclusivity leadership for managers, how do you create a safe space for people to share? How do you create a comfort that people don't feel that they're going to be passed over for maybe a job promotion? And people have to feel included. Let's switch gears for a bit and talk about you outside of work and the professional disability work that you do. How do you like to take care of yourself when things get tough? It is difficult working in the EDI space. Yeah, I rely a lot on friends and colleagues to boost me up sometimes. And Toby, you know that because in some of our meetings, I ask for difficult, where I'm having difficulty, I ask for people's opinions. But others just need to step back and re-evaluate the situation of what is making things tough. And that's one thing that I've learned is that it is okay to work on yourself, that is not, when you do something for yourself, don't feel like it's a waste of time, you're working on yourself and that creates a positive environment for you, you're creating a positive environment for yourself. And take care of your mental health, whether that means taking a break for an hour or even a day, you can take a whole day. And luckily in our field, because we are only dictated by our clients, there are some days that we can squeeze in a personal day. Use it to your advantage. And what is something that's bringing you joy right now? This podcast. Besides this podcast. I really enjoy what I do, I have a passion for it. And people tell me that they don't like their job and I just am so sad. I want to create a better society rather than, it's not, work is not just about earning a paycheck. As nice as that is, and it's true for some, I enjoy my work because it's changing attitudes, changing society one person at a time. I mean, if I had 10 million pounds in the bank, I'd probably still do what I do. Yeah, same here, actually. I think lots of people want to feel that they're making a difference in the work that they do. And I think we're quite lucky in our field that we can have that kind of impact. So just as I draw this conversation to a close, I've got some quick fire questions for you. What is a book that you feel everyone should read? Okay, so everybody's on a different or on a journey, but they're planning their journey or they might be in a different place of their journey, they might just be starting out, they might just be finding out about disability. One thing that if somebody's near the beginning of their journey, I would recommend a book called Why Are You Pretending To Be Normal? It's a self-help book written by Phil Friend and Dave Reeves. And then if there are employers that manage disabled staff members, I would recommend a book by Kate Nash that's called Positively Purple. It gets into how employers need to be inclusive from the beginning. Yeah, it's funny you should mention Kate because I've interviewed Kate a couple of times on this podcast about her books. So if you're listening can listen to my conversation with her. So my next question is, who is somebody Purple for instance, then look back through previous episodes because you to us right now and you want to learn about Kate Nash's books Positively that has influenced you? Now, I mentioned this name before, but I think it sticks in my head that Barbara Lisicki, because she introduced me to the social model of disability, and she's one of the people that pushed the DDA of 1995. They did a film about her called When Barbara Met Alan. And I also recommend the Netflix show Crypt Camp. Yes. Yeah, I love that. I love that show on Netflix. And what is a skill that you're working on? Being more organized and consistent with social media. That is a struggle for me, but I'm getting better at it with the help of other cohorts that are with Mildon and Associates. And what is your go-to comfort activity? I have a hard time feeling guilty that I could be doing something more productive, but I'm getting better. But my comfort activity is reading or playing guitar. I've learned guitar by 30 years ago, but I play like somebody who's only been playing for probably a year because I haven't been practicing enough. And what is one small thing that brings you peace? Oh, definitely scuba diving. Because when I'm underwater and you don't have the outside noise and you have to focus on that one thing, 100% you have to because your life depends on it. That brings me a lot of peace. What else would you like to say as we wrap up this conversation? Just that it's a pleasure working with you, Toby. You are such, I don't want to say inspiration, but you are inspirational because of the things that you do. So I really admire you. Thanks, I really appreciate that. Could you just explain why we might refrain from describing a disabled person as inspirational? Because this comes up quite a lot, doesn't it, in the training that we do? Yes. So I cannot remember her name that did a TEDx talk. She's no longer with us, unfortunately, but she did I'm Not Your Inspiration, Thank You Very Much. And she came up with, I don't know if she invented it, but it's inspiration porn, that disabled people are there to make non-disabled people feel better about themselves. Oh, my life might be bad, but at least it's not as bad as Ruben's or Toby's. And this is why you have to be careful when you say somebody's inspirational, you have to earn inspirational, you have to earn that term. And you definitely have, Toby, because of what you've done, whether you're disabled or not, that has nothing to do with it. Yeah, absolutely. And quite often, I think people say that a disabled person is inspirational because they do just normal day-to-day activities like getting out of bed, brushing your teeth, making it to the office on time. And for a non-disabled person, that wouldn't be inspirational, but for somebody who's disabled, it seems inspirational, which can be quite patronizing. Yeah. It really is. Brilliant. I think her name was Stella Young. Yeah, I've seen her TED talk. It's really good. Well, Ruben, thanks ever so much for joining us today, it's been really great to catch up with you. We've learned a lot. I think what I take away from this conversation is if we are to be disability inclusive and to create a great workplace for disabled people, we have to move beyond the compliance level. We need to really focus on creating the right culture for people to be able to thrive. You touched upon the importance of psychological safety, I think you said it takes on average three years for somebody to build up the confidence to request a reasonable adjustment. And over those three years, you've potentially got an employee who's not able to do their job freely and they're not working at their highest peak of productivity. And that's going to be damaging for them as an individual, but also on the productivity for an organization, which just goes to show why the work that you do is really important. So thanks for joining us today and thanks again for being a new member of the team. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much, Toby. You're welcome. And thank you for tuning into this episode with Ruben and myself. Hopefully you've taken away some, I dare to say, inspiration from this conversation, but some inspiration to help make your workplace more inclusive for disabled employees. If there's anything that Ruben or I or the rest of the team can do to help you become a more inclusive workplace that enables your employees to thrive, whether they're disabled or not, please do reach out to us through our website, mildon.co.uk. You can also find Ruben and myself on LinkedIn. So you can just drop us a message on LinkedIn. Until next time, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which will be coming out very soon. Take care. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.