Why EDI Feels Risky – And How to Lead Through It Authentically

Are we doing EDI right – or just going through the motions?

In this powerful follow-up episode, Toby Mildon is joined by Poornima Luthra, Associate Professor at Copenhagen Business School and thought leader on inclusive leadership. They explore the growing backlash against Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion (EDI), especially in light of shifting US policies, and what it means for leaders navigating this complex terrain.

Poornima shares insights from her upcoming book “Can I Say That?”, outlining the five key fears that stall EDI progress: fear of change, fear of saying the wrong thing, fear of being marginalised, discomfort with difficult conversations, and the fear of making no progress.

Key takeaways include:

• The importance of stealth inclusion when public support wanes
• How to make EDI work systemic, not symbolic
• Strategies for handling resistance from senior leaders
• Tips for emotional resilience when doing EDI work

Guest highlight:
Poornima brings both academic rigour and lived experience to the conversation, making her one of the most compelling voices in EDI today.

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Inclusive Growth show with Toby Mildon. Future

proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace. Toby Mildon: 0:06

Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm rejoined by Poornima Luthra, who is actually based in Denmark over in Copenhagen. She is an associate professor at the Copenhagen Business School and I'm based in the UK, so it's good to catch up with Poornima over in Denmark. Poornima has been on the show before where we had a fantastic conversation and this is a follow up conversation and today we're going to be talking about the state of EDI, particularly with what's happening in the world and some of the policies that are coming out of the White House as well, and how that's affecting the work that we do. So, Poornima, thanks ever

so much for joining me. It's lovely to see you again. Poornima Luthra: 1:01

Likewise,

Toby. Really glad to be here. Toby Mildon: 1:05

So, could you just share with us a bit more about your journey and what led you to

specializing in EDI within the corporate sector? Poornima Luthra: 1:11

Yeah, thanks Toby, for that question. Everyone has personal reasons for why they engage with this work. And there's also for me, the professional side. So, I'll start off with the professional side of this. I became exposed to the theoretical perspectives around EDI work and the research around it during my PhD program, which was about 18 years ago, and started trying to understand what was done in research, looking into gender and feminist theories, looking into the work of Kimberly Crenshaw on intersectionality, queer theory, and that's really where it comes from. And then of course through my PhD program, I got exposed to research methods, exploring this topic more. And it was an early experience on a professional front. Once I started my first full time job after finishing my PhD, I'd been teaching for a few years at a university, and I'd always taught undergraduate courses up till that point in time. And there was a new master's program that was being launched, and I went to the program director, and I said, I'd really like to be considered to teach one of these courses. Poornima

Luthra: 2:29

And that particular course was right up my alley in terms of my research interests, teaching interests. I had really good student evaluations, which are important in academia. And the program director looked at me and

said, not until you've got a lot more white hair. Toby Mildon: 2:41

Right? Poornima

Luthra: 2:45

And there I was, a woman of color. But those were not the two dimensions upon which I was being discriminated upon in that moment. It was apparently just the fact that I was not old enough. I was not of the right age. And so that got me thinking about expanding how we look at diversity in our organizations, who were being inclusive to our processes and conversations that we're having around this. Are they actually being fair? Are we being inclusive? And so that's where the work began. We're trying to diversify diversity, thinking about fairness in our processes, procedures, interactions that we're having in the workplace. So that's very much on the professional front. There's also the personal side, I suppose. And if you ask my parents, they'll tell you that I've always had an awareness about injustice in the world and that it affected me as a child. And then, of course, life experiences. Being from an underrepresented group in many different contexts, both in school and later on at university, and then, of course, at work, means that you have that lived experience as well, and you want to change things for others and for generations to come so that they don't have to experience the very same things that we've

had to experience. Poornima Luthra: 3:57

So, that's the motivation for entering this space and trying to change things in organizations and hopefully then broader society, because I do believe that when we're engaging with people in the corporate environment or even in the public sector, that employ the vast majority of people, we are then having that ripple effect into society

and communities as well. Toby Mildon: 4:18

So, the timing of this episode is really important because we're recording this conversation just at the end of March 2025, and there's a lot of negativity coming out of the White House in America around EDI. What are your reflections on the backlash that we are seeing to EDI that's coming out of the White House

and some of Trump's policies? Poornima Luthra: 4:43

Yeah. If we look at the media, I think it is fair to say that the picture looks rather bleak. Right? Every day or every week, at least, over the last few weeks, we've heard of organizations that are backtracking on their DEI efforts, their DEI targets. But at the same time, there's also evidence that shows us that there are many organizations who are sticking by their policies, practices, and efforts within the EDI space. And there is data that shows us that in the US, seven out of eight organizations are still continuing the work. And it is likely that many of these organizations are going into what I refer to as stealth mode, under the radar. Where on the surface they may not be openly talking about it. They might have removed things from their website, they might be renaming departments and roles in the organization, but they're actually continuing the work. And

maybe this is what is necessary. Poornima Luthra: 5:41

I know that the policies and of course the executive orders are having a disastrous impact on individuals across different sectors. And I also wonder whether this is maybe that pivot point where the work that we're doing within the EDI space, that we are having to put the mirror up to ourselves, those of us working in this space to ask ourselves, have we been doing the right kind of work that actually makes and enables systemic and cultural change to happen, or has our efforts up till now been largely performative and have we also failed in many ways to communicate and get everybody along this journey rather than creating polarization? So, I do believe this is an opportunity for us within the community, those of us working in different ways, to actually, have a think about what we've done

and how we are doing this work going forward. Poornima Luthra: 6:37

And that's how I'm seeing it. Of course, you see a mixed bag. I'm sitting here in Copenhagen and there are some companies that are vocally and visibly coming out and saying that despite what happening in the US, we are going to continue our efforts with EDI. And yet there are others that are changing the language that's being used. Some are reporting differently in their annual reports. But I still do believe that the vast majority of organizations are holding by their values and they are going

into that stealth or under the radar mode. Toby Mildon: 7:12

Yeah, I think if an organization has already got it stated in their values that they celebrate diversity or they want a culture of respect, then they should stick to those values. I remember a colleague of mine who specialises in helping companies define their values, says that it's when an organization is going through difficult times that that really tests their values and that's when they should be leaning into their values rather than rewriting their values where the temptation might be? I mean, based on the research that you've done, why do you think we are seeing such a backlash

or negativity around EDI in America? Poornima Luthra: 7:55

Yeah, so, I've spent the last two years studying the backlash. So, while we're seeing perhaps the peak of it right now, I mean, backlash to EDI work, the resistance has always been there. You can trace it back to the Civil Rights Movement, and there's always been some degree and varying degrees of backlash and resistance. Spent the last two years trying to understand where this backlash comes from, and when we start looking at it. It comes down to some of the research around seeing EDI as a threat. And it could be a threat to our status. It could be a threat to the positions that we've held. It could be a threat to our culture, what we believe should be the culture, or what we believe should be societal values and just our ways of doing things. And when something is a threat, it evokes in us as human beings a set of emotions, everything from being worried to being anxious to being paranoid, to being overwhelmed, to feeling insecure, inadequate. And so these emotions, when we look at the research around emotions, comes down to the core human emotion of fear. And that's been my research over the last two years to understand this fear, to delve into what are

people actually fearful of when it comes to EDI. Poornima Luthra: 9:15

And so, my research, which is coming out in my new book, Can I say that? Which releases in May, looks at five fears that exist when it comes to EDI work. And it starts off with the fear of change itself, that when we are trying to, in our organizations or even society, trying to embrace people who are different from us, who may look different, speak differently, look at life differently, have a different approach to things, it challenges us from what we've been comfortable with, what we've been used to. And so, as human beings, we are creatures of comfort. We like things as they are. We don't like uncertainty and change. And so, it is this fear of change as the first one. And then there's also the fear of getting it wrong, right? What if I say and do the wrong thing? I think for a lot of us, myself included, in the climate that we're in right now, many of us are feeling like we're walking around eggshells, that we're being cautious about what we say, how we express ourselves. I just spoke to a journalist earlier today who wanted my comments around what's happening

right now with EDI. Poornima Luthra: 10:26

And it's. Even for someone like me who's in this space and who wants to be as authentic and real in terms of what I'm saying, I'm also cautious of the language that I'm using and what I'm saying. So, there is this fear of getting it wrong, saying and doing the wrong thing. And then there's also the fear of actually taking actions and the personal consequences of doing so, that if I act and I support EDI efforts, how am I going to be seen? Am I going to be canceled if I get it wrong? Am I going to be seen as the EDI or DEI or VOC police when I'm in the room or there she comes, she's going to be correcting us now on what we're doing and we get labeled, perhaps those of us who are working in this space, and then also the consequences, right? A lot of the work within the EDI space is non promotable tasks. And for many in organizations, they do the work voluntarily. It is on top of leading, facilitating ERGs. For example, engaging with leaders on EDI topics is often an add on because of your personal interest, because it's something that you believe in, but it's not part of the job description for many people, unless you happen to have a title that

has EDI within it. Poornima Luthra: 11:48

But that's not sufficient. In our organizations, we need lots of individuals, contributors, leaders, and managers to be able to step up to this. And that means that a lot of people are doing it on top of. And so, if this is not something that is valued in the organization, is seen as something that can be used to enable promotion, that's seen as something that's important. It is a non promotable task and that's also a consequence. And then it's also the fear of the discomfort that comes from having these conversations. It is not easy for people to come to terms with things like bias, that we are all indeed biased. It's simply how our brain functions. Not that that should be an excuse in any way, because bias has a profound influence on the decisions that we make and how we interact with other people in a way that favors some and doesn't favor others. So, we have to first come to terms with the fact that we are indeed biased, and also with ideas around privilege, and the shame and guilt that is often evoked when we talk about privilege. And so,

there's a discomfort from having these conversations. Poornima Luthra: 12:56

And then finally, the fifth fear is about. The lack of progress, right? For many of us and even those who are not working within the space directly, it almost feels like we're taking two steps forward sometimes and five steps back. And right now it can feel like we're going back in time. Even so, that fear of a lack of positive impact, positive progress, it can be demotivating and it can put a huge emotional mental burden on those who are trying to do the work. So, there are these fears, and as you can see from these fears, it's not just people who are working in the space, but also those who are not directly engaged in EDI work, because there's fear all around.

Toby Mildon: 13:47

What you've said. Those five fears just resonate with me because they're exactly what the clients that I work with talk about. So, when your book comes out, I'm going to buy it, and I'm going to give it to all of my clients because you've just perfectly encapsulated the concerns that they have about progressing

EDI in their organizations. Poornima Luthra: 14:08

I'm glad it resonated with you, Toby. And the data's based on multiple different data sets coming together. And if anything, we see this in a more pronounced way today than

even five years ago. Toby Mildon: 14:24

Well, the thing is, I could write an article on LinkedIn and list those five fears because it is what my clients are telling me. But you've got the academic rigor and the research that's behind that. So, it just proves that these fears are very real for senior leaders in organisations in particular. I mean, talking of which, how do you go about addressing resistance from senior leaders or employees in an organization who just views EDI efforts as unnecessary

or just overly politically correct or "woke?" Poornima Luthra: 15:01

I think one of the things that we have to get better at is communicating what DEI or EDI actually means. I think there are misconceptions around the very idea of what is diversity, what is equity and what is inclusion. And the way I define it in my new book and in my previous books as well, is that diversity is about valuing differences and uniqueness, and equity is about fairness and inclusion is about that sense, deep sense of belonging. Now, if we define it in this way, I think it's very easy for people to say I'm anti DEI or I'm anti vogue or to not see the necessity. But if we were to ask people to say, would you be anti valuing uniqueness and difference? Would you be anti fairness and would you be anti belonging, which, as we know, is a core human need? I think it'll be pretty hard for people to say that I'm anti those things. So, in many ways, the acronym in itself allows for people to be anti EDI or anti DEI or anti vogue. Right? And so, that's one aspect, is that we need to get better at communicating what this actually means at its core, and that it is part of the human experience to want to be valued for our differences, to want to feel that the world is fair, that our organizations are

fair, and that we feel that deep sense of belonging. Poornima Luthra: 17:07

If we keep that definition in mind, then it becomes easier for us to convince people. So, having those conversations, first of all, and then asking people what is it that they're uncomfortable with, what is it that they're fearful of? When I was doing my research, one of the things that came up as I was interviewing people across different countries, different levels and organizations, across different industries, one of the things that I noticed was that people were fearful of the word fear itself. And so, when we have these conversations, it's also about saying, what is it that you're feeling when you encounter or engage in EDI related work in your organizations? And what emotions are evoked and people are more comfortable talking about? It worries me. Or I just feel I don't know enough about it. I feel inadequate or I feel insecure about my own position. That opens up for having some of these conversations around the need for us to move away from the zero sum mentality or binary thinking around EDI. And again, that comes back to what I said earlier, that we've got to do a better job at communicating this because much of the consequences of having targets and quotas in our organizations

is that we've created this us versus them mentality. Poornima Luthra: 18:26

So, if you prioritize women in the organization, that it's somehow at the expense of men. And we have created the zero sum attitude towards EDI work when it shouldn't be. If EDI work is done right, if it is about systemic and cultural change, it is about leveling the playing field and it is about making sure that the organization is fair for everybody and everybody stands to benefit from it. And then it's about having those conversations around, well, what is the value that it adds? And look, I myself have used some of the McKinsey data in the past before, but we know that that data is dodgy. There's enough evidence to show that the financial impact or influence of EDI efforts, there is very little proof and it cannot be validated or replicated in different contexts. So, I think it comes down to looking at some of the other research around this, right? Thinking about when we have people who come together with different perspectives and experiences, what value does it add in terms of decision making? What value does it add in terms of idea generation that then leads to either better decision making or creativity

and innovation. Poornima Luthra: 19:42

What does it add when we have an environment of inclusion where people do feel they can bring their unique selves, where they feel psychologically safe in that environment, where they feel that deep sense of belonging? People thrive in that environment. And it's not just those from underrepresented groups that thrive in an inclusive culture. Everybody thrives and everybody feels that deep sense of satisfaction with their jobs. And that, of course, then translates into some wonderful organizational outcomes of lower turnover, higher job satisfaction. And so, we need to focus on those benefits, that there's actually a benefit for leaders in the organization because it adds value, that their teams are going to be working better together, that they are going to be achieving some of the high performance that we'd like to see on teams in today's world with the rapid changes that are going on, transformation, agility that's required, how do we achieve that? And how do we achieve different ways of doing things than how we've always done it before? If we don't have people who are thinking differently, who are approaching things differently because of their backgrounds, because

of their skills, because of their experiences. Poornima Luthra: 20:52

So, I think it is about the clarification about what EDI actually is and the awareness building. I know we keep talking about, and when I do work in organizations, we spend time on awareness, but I don't know if awareness building ever stops, Toby. I feel it's something that you. To keep emphasizing, going back on, clarifying, because people are bombarded with so much information around them it's easy for us to change our views or be maybe even led down a pathway where we are looking at these things in not the way that it was intended or the way it should be. And so, we have to keep clarifying. We have to keep building knowledge and awareness. And then it is about asking those questions about what is it that people feel when they are resistant to, when they're engaging with EDI and they feel that discomfort, where is it coming from? And having those honest, open conversations, which I don't think we do enough of. There's a lot of vilifying, for lack of better word, around this, that if you're not on board with it, you must be a bad

person. Poornima Luthra: 22:02

But it's about inviting people to the table and saying, let's have a conversation. Where is this coming from? Hear my point of view. Let's discuss and have a dialogue around this. And then it's about emphasizing the value that it adds for everybody. Not just for some

groups, but for everybody. Toby Mildon: 22:19

Yeah, definitely. I did a project with a consultancy company and I had individual phone calls with all of the directors of the company to understand what their hopes and fears were when it came to EDI. And I codified that into Five hopes and five fears. And then we had a boardroom session where we discussed the fears openly, because they weren't being openly discussed, they were being brushed under the carpet. They weren't having those candid conversations with one another. But over the course of working with them for 12 months, they had a complete mindset shift for the better. So, how do we make sure that we ensure the EDI initiatives are not just symbolic, they're not just performative gestures, but are actually systemic in nature and have a real lasting impact on organizational cultures?

Poornima Luthra: 23:18

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think the timing to answer, to be reflecting on this question is also now because as we see organizations peel away from some of the performative work that's on their websites or showing up at a particular event or annual event and moving away from that, this is a great time to be asking ourselves what does that systemic and cultural change look like? Right? And in my last book, Leading Through Bias, I focus on, with my co author, focus on the employee life cycle. And in organizations, that's a great starting point of a process where there's plenty of opportunities, some low hanging fruit, some that are a bit more resource intensive, but there are easy things that we can put into place, nudges that we can put into place. Throughout the employee life cycle to be able to ensure that they're actually fair, that our hiring processes are truly based on competencies, that we are making as much of an effort to be able to not hire from the same groups or places

that we've always hired from. Poornima Luthra: 24:27

And that comes down to thinking about the language that we're using in our job adverts and making sure that it's neutral. It's about casting the net as far and wide as possible so that we're tapping into competent talent, well qualified talent in spaces and places that we might otherwise not have tapped into. It's about thinking about how we design the interview process to be more inclusive, to ensure that we're using structured interview guides so that we're not asking certain candidates certain questions that don't favor them, whereas we're asking other candidates questions in different ways, right? That do favor them. And so, it's about thinking about all of this. And then of course, when people come into the organization, what opportunities, who is being given opportunities for career progression, who is being given the non promotable tasks in the organization, the office housework, right? Who is being given the visibility opportunities, thinking about pay equity, thinking about how we do performance management, what competencies are we assessing people on when it comes to performance management, how we provide, are we providing consistent career progressing feedback to everybody or are we actually providing that feedback to some people and different feedback to others? So, there's so much that we can do across just the

employee life cycle. Poornima Luthra: 25:52

And of course, a lot of my work also focuses on inclusive design. Right? Who are the Personas that we're thinking about as we design our products and services? How do we expand upon that to ensure that it's being more inclusive? And that comes from a, if we even look at it from a purely, yes, it's the right thing to do, but from a purely business sense. The diversity of our customers is something that we want to be able to embrace so that we're reaching a larger segment of the population and of course that's good for business, right? And then thinking about marketing campaigns, we all know that and I'm sure we can all list marketing campaigns that have gone terribly wrong. Because there wasn't that attention paid to looking at where it could be offensive, it could be discriminatory towards certain groups in the language, in the visual imagery that is being used. And there are plenty of examples that we can come up with. But that also makes us think about, well, were there people from these groups represented within the decision making bodies across that marketing campaign cycle? And if they were there, did they feel safe enough to be able to address it or did they go along with it because their voice was not heard or had not been heard in the past? So, we have so much that we can actually pay attention to that

is systemic and that enables that cultural change to happen. Poornima Luthra: 27:20

And of course, in one of my books that I write focuses on allyship, right? Thinking about how do we show up to nurture that culture of inclusion by being an ally, by stepping up, not just being passive, but actually showing up, stepping up and engaging in day to day behaviors frequently, to be able to ask questions, to challenge each other on our biases in a respectful, empathetic way, to be able to have vulnerable conversations as well. And so nurturing that day to day interactions by the coffee machine, at lunch, during meetings, that's where we see that cultural shift happening. So, there's plenty that we can do and these are the things we should be focusing on rather than those symbolic on the website, attend an event, have a panel discussion and we're done for the year. Toby

Mildon: 28:07

Yeah, I'm glad you said that because so many clients come to me saying we've done all of that, we've changed our logo to the Pride flag during LGBT History... And we're not seeing the needle shift. And I have a interesting conversation with them about the systemic changes that are needed now. I mean, this is something you touched on a bit earlier and it's around about now. Working in the EDI space can be quite challenging. A lot of people are doing it on the side of their desk, so they might have a day job and then they might be chairing an employee resource group, like a LGBT group or something like that. What's your recommendations on how people working within this space manage their emotional and mental well being that comes with working in this area, particularly when they're facing pushback or they're frustrated

with the slow progress that's being made? Poornima Luthra: 29:05

Yeah, I think self care is very important, Toby. I think for all of us in this space. I think many of us take it on because we believe it's the right thing to do, that we have had a lived experience ourselves or we feel that we want change to happen and we see the value maybe for our teams and organization from a business standpoint, and so we take it on. But at the same time, it comes with a lot of emotional mental stress and strain. And so, for me, self care is important and I think we need to allow ourselves the permission to step away when we need to and come back to it. Stepping away doesn't mean we're not as committed that we don't believe in it. Of course we do. But sometimes it is just too much. And sometimes the burden is very much on folks from underrepresented groups who are already experiencing this in their day to day. There might be trauma involved in their experiences that they're living with. And every time they're engaging on this, it reignites that trauma

in individuals. And so, self care for me, is super important. Poornima Luthra: 30:17

And stepping away doesn't mean in any way that your commitment to this work is any less. At the same time, I also think that for those of us who have the physical, emotional mental strength to keep at it for the time being at least to be resilient and keep at it. We also need to challenge our organizations to say that this work is important. It needs to be valued, it needs to be recognized, it needs to be part of performance reviews, it needs to be seen as something that is a promotable task because it is hugely important in shifting the systems and processes and culture of the organization. So, I think it is a combination of both giving ourselves grace and permission to self care and when we're feeling strong, when we're feeling that we can, to also challenge the environment around us, to ensure that this is something that is truly valued so that it is seen as

something important in our organizations. Toby Mildon: 31:16

Well, thanks ever so much for joining me today. I thoroughly enjoy catching up with you and I'd like to get you back on the podcast perhaps when your next book comes out. Before you go, can you just give us a very quick reminder of what your book is, how people can get their

hands on a copy? Poornima Luthra: 31:36

Sure, I can do that.

So, my new book is "Can I Say That?: 31:39

Your Go to Guide for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion" and that comes out in May, so please do look out for it. Join me on LinkedIn, follow me on LinkedIn and once the book is out in May 2025, you'll be able to order it on Amazon and all the usual channels. But my previous books are also out there, "Leading Through Bias, The Art of Active Allyship and Diversifying Diversity," which are available through major retailers in the UK around the world, and of course on

Amazon. Toby Mildon: 32:11

Have you got another book inside you, do you think?

Poornima Luthra: 32:14

Not just yet. I think, Toby, if I write another book, my family might. I've written four books in five years, so that's been quite five, six years. So, it's been quite an intense pace. So, I'm going to take a moment, I think, just to get this one out and it's an important one that addresses fear. So, I'm going to just sit with this for a little while, but never say never. So, I'm sure there's one more brewing somewhere up in

my head, but hopefully sometime soon. Yes. Thanks, Toby. Toby Mildon: 32:41

Yeah. Well, I enjoy your thought leadership and I think it'll be good to see another book. I know when I wrote my first book, Inclusive Growth, my publisher said to me, now that you've written one book, you've caught the book bug and there's probably another book inside you. And then a year later I published my second book and now I'm thinking about my third book. So, yeah, I think authors do catch the

bug. Poornima Luthra: 33:12

Oh, absolutely. And it is a beautiful process. Right? And I'm reminded I have Toni Morrison's quotation right here. If there's a book that you want to read but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write. I think that's what's always motivated me with all my research and the books that I've published. Waiting for the next inspiration, but thank you for having me Toby.

Always such a pleasure. Toby Mildon: 33:35

You're welcome. Thanks ever so much for joining me today and thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth show with myself and Poornima. Hopefully you've taken away some inspiration and some different perspectives on how you can manage EDI within your organization. As always, if you need any support reach out to me through my website @mildon.co.uk. Please do go and buy a copy of Poornima's book when it comes out. And please do follow her on LinkedIn as well so that you can, follow her thought on leadership. So thanks for joining me today, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which should be coming out very soon. Take care. Bye bye.

Speaker 1: 34:14

Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website @mildon.go.uk.