Inclusive Growth Show

How Active Bystander Training Helps Tackle Workplace Discrimination

• Toby Mildon • Episode 155

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How can we empower employees to address discrimination in the workplace?

In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show, Toby Mildon sits down with Catherine Millan, founder of Be What You See Consultancy, to explore how active bystander training is helping organisations create inclusive and psychologically safe workplaces.

Catherine shares her personal experiences with ADHD, dyslexia, and workplace discrimination, which fuelled her passion for diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She explains how her training programs equip employees with practical strategies to challenge microaggressions and foster an inclusive workplace culture.

💡 Key Takeaways:
✔️ What active bystander training is and why it’s essential.
✔️ How to challenge discrimination effectively using the five Ds approach.
✔️ The impact of microaggressions and how to address them.
✔️ How organisations like the NHS are using bystander training to reduce workplace bullying and harassment.
✔️ The role of psychological safety in building inclusive teams.

🎧 Tune in now to learn how you can create a workplace where everyone thrives.

🔗 Connect with Catherine Millan:

Send us a message

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Intro: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth show with Toby Mildon. Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Catherine Millan. Now, Catherine and I live and work quite closely to one another. We originally met at a diversity, equity and inclusion conference that was being hosted in Manchester. And I went along to the workshop that Catherine was delivering about active bystander training, which I found incredibly helpful and interesting. So then I thought it'd be really good to get Catherine on the podcast to talk about active bystander training and what she's noticing about microaggressions in the workplace and just to really sit down with another EDI professional and pick her brains, to be honest. So, Catherine, thanks ever so much for joining. Joining us today. It's lovely to see you.

Catherine Millan: Yeah, thank you for having me, Toby. And I agree. It's nice for us to come together and kind of just have more formal in chats like this as well. So, yeah, really excited.

Toby Mildon: Thank you. So, Catherine, that was just a really brief introduction, but could you just let us know a bit more about who you are and what led you to set up your company, Be What You can See? 

Catherine Millan: Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. So my name is Catherine Millan and my pronouns are she/her, and I am the founder and company director of Be What You See Consultancy. We are a workplace discrimination prevention training company. And I set the company up in February 2022. And I guess one of the main reasons why I kind of went for a bit of a career change, decided to become an entrepreneur was from... Because I got diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia during lockdown. And I think at that stage of my career, I'd already received quite a lot of barriers due to my gender, race, sexual orientation. And I think just at that point, then almost having the diagnosis of ADHD and dyslexia, it just added this other barrier of access in the workplace. So I think for me, I was then very much motivated around, well, what does an inclusive workplace look for me and how can I create that? At the time, my job role had changed. I worked with the University of Manchester at the time, who were really great and really supportive, but I think, you'll be able to relate to this, Toby.

Catherine Millan: Sometimes the systems and processes aren't right and you end up being that person who is constantly fighting, constantly advocating. And I think I just got to a point in my career where I was like, I love delivering training. I've always delivered training on topics that kind of fall under that umbrella, FEDI. So anti racism, LGBT inclusion, kinds of mental health awareness. And I just got to a point where I was like, do you know what? I'm going to set up my own company. I originally just wanted it to be a bit of a side hustle, if I'm being completely honest with you. I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to keep my job at Manchester and I'm just going to build up so I can maybe drop a day at Manchester. And it completely took off and within the first four months I became fully booked for training for the rest of the year. So then I had to give my notice in. And then it's just been this transition of me going from just doing training and that's the focus to actually building a company and a team of people.

Catherine Millan: And now I'm at the point where I now hire associate trainers to go out and do the training. I'm just finding my feet in terms of what it means to be a company director, for me, and where I sit comfortably in all of those different tasks and job roles that I have to do. And yeah, I've just never really looked back since. I kind of just... It's nice being in an environment where I do feel like completely in control day to day in terms of being supported, strategies being implemented, but also just everybody around me understands what all of our needs are, not just mine, but everybody in the team.

Toby Mildon: That's really good. That's really good. I can relate to that because obviously I was a in-house EDI practitioner for both the BBC and Deloitte and then I set up my consultancy just before coronavirus hit. And I can relate to what you're saying because, yeah, I enjoy delivering projects to clients. But then you also have to wear the entrepreneur hat because you're building a business at the same time and building a team in order to support clients, et cetera, et cetera. So why is it that you chose to focus on workplace discrimination as your core focus? 

Catherine Millan: Yeah, definitely. I think probably there's personal and professional reasons. So being from Merseyside, Liverpool, growing up in Liverpool and growing up on the Wirral, I was indirectly affected by a racially aggravated murder of a young male when I was only 18 at the time when Anthony died and that almost kind of lit a spark in me to have an interest in the area of anti racism at that time. I was just about to go to university to study education because I didn't necessarily want to become a teacher, but I knew I wanted to work within education in some way. I just didn't know what the job role would be. Then I then came out at university where I just felt like I almost found the space and my people and the community to be accepting of who I was, no matter who I loved. So that then also then kind of just sparked an interest in LGBT inclusion. I guess the personal side of that, it's the experience in those everyday microaggressions or those everyday, like incidents of hate that then remade me really reflect on why is it that like people think that's okay? Like and for me I was always more annoyed at the people who stood and did nothing.

Catherine Millan: I was obviously angry with the perpetrator. But for me it was like equal. Especially in a workplace context. It was like, how can people stand and do nothing? And that just never set well with me. And I've studied quite a lot of... Or I've looked at things like genocide throughout history, things like holly horse education. And I think I've always just then had this interest in the concept of being an active bystander. And then I think because I've experienced so many different types of discrimination myself personally, I kind of like added the two together and was just like, actually if I decide to do this as a career, it's not just going to be because I'm passionate about it. This can hopefully improve my experiences that I have day to day. So then the professional side of it, when I joined for example like the University of Manchester, I did quite a lot of work on things like the Race Equality Charter mark. So that then was just this amazing opportunity to not just look at tackling races on a verbal and behavioral level. I was looking at it in from systems and processes and looking at what do we need to dismantle.

Catherine Millan: I joined the Stonewall Award committee. So again that exposure of, okay, these what universities need to do to work towards this award. So this is the processes and systems that we need to change. And then similarly I've done some work with clients on helping them achieve things like the Disability Confident awards. So I just think throughout my career it not even really knowing it came from a personal interest. I just had probably six to eight years exposure of this is why discrimination happens and this is how we need to dismantle it. On top of this is how we can address it on a verbal and behavioral level. And I was just then like, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm talking about. I've got all of this data and I think it just builds up a confidence then because I could go in and have conversations with people about why it is like that. Why are you not getting certain candidates past the application stage? Why? And I think just... And I don't know if this about you, but I'm... And I think this does relate to me having ADHD and dyslexia. Like I hyper focus on things.

Catherine Millan: So I really get into it. I'll find a report and I'll spend hours reading it. I'll be able to, even though I've got dyslexia and it affects my ability to interpret numbers, I'll remember those harder hitting stats because there's a personal attachment to it. So I think it's that passion combined with what I've experienced throughout my career. I was just like, let's do this. And then the confidence came.

Toby Mildon: I like what you said about how you were frustrated with the people that did nothing. And I think that links into active bystander because... Can you just explain, because the person listening to us right now may not have heard of active bystander or what active bystander training is. Can you just give us a really brief overview of what it is? Because actually also it comes from an interesting history as well, doesn't it? It comes from an incident that happened in New York City.

Catherine Millan: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when we're talking about active bystander intervention, I always kind of say you've got the education side and then you've got almost the theory. So when we're talking about active bystander theory, it kind of refers to the idea that bystanders, so those who kind of witness problematic, harmful behavior, they do have the power to intervene and prevent and stop it. And it's about equipping them with the skills, tools and knowledge to take them from a place from being passive, like passively observing to being active. And what the theory side of it does. It just, I think, in my opinion, encourages individuals that when to recognize when they're in those situations, when intervention is needed. So I think, like I was saying before, what I see day to day is that sometimes people won't even realise why that comment, why that behavior, why that system or process is discriminatory or it excludes a certain group. And what the education side of being an active bystander allows you to do is to build up that skill set. So what I always say to people is if you think about the conscious competence learning theory model that talks about taking people from a place of unconscious incompetence.

Catherine Millan: So not really understanding what racism is, not seeing it, not acknowledging it's a problem, to a place of conscious incompetence where it's like, oh, okay, this is how racism shows up for Black people in the UK. I'm conscious of that now. I accept that it's a problem. But they're still at that place where I don't really know what to do about it. And then the third stage will be, okay, how do we get you to a place of conscious competence? And what we mean by that is, I see racism, I understand why and how it affects people, and this is my role to dismantling it. And what our active bystander training does. It almost takes people on a journey of recognizing and then gives them the skills and tools to challenge.

Catherine Millan: So we talk about inactive bystander training. There's five different techniques on how you can respond to discrimination, three of which don't involve any direct contact with the perpetrator or victim target. So again, it's around that almost skill building as well. Because I think when people are like active bystander, they think of this, oh, it's got to be this heroic person, someone with loads of confidence. And actually it's not. It's just knowing what tools around me do I have to prevent that, Whether it's in the moment or it's something that I do as a follower.

Toby Mildon: That's actually what gave me confidence after your workshop. Because I went into the workshop thinking being an active bystander was being active, putting myself in basically line of danger and having to deal with conflict, which I don't like. And then after you taught me the five Ds or the five different strategies, I realized that actually I could be an act... I could be an effective active bystander by using some of the techniques which are less confrontational. They're not even confrontational, but I suppose they're less direct. And it really gave me confidence afterwards. So can you just give me some examples about how you're using active bystander training to educate and inform different organizations that you work with? How are you kind of seeing the changes? 

Catherine Millan: Yeah, definitely. So we're doing quite a lot of work within the NHS now. So we've got quite a lot of NHS clients that we're working with, NHS trusts. And our kind of main aim there is to go in and look at reducing experiences of bullying, harassment and what we would kind of categorize as identity based hate. So within the NHS they have staff survey, so within that they do collect data to say, have you had experiences of this because you are LGBT? Or if you are disabled? So the first thing that we do is we almost do that audit to say, okay, how is discrimination showing up? And then we will develop training bespoke to kind of address certain types of discrimination.

Catherine Millan: So if it is homophobia, if it is ableism, if it is racism, what I'd say I'd probably observed is that because within the NHS and those roles, they're obviously working with the public, so it's a lot of front facing and sometimes the staff are really challenged because they are almost exposed to discrimination and are then put in a position where they have to do something about it. But for some staff, they're like, do you know what, Catherine? Like, I knew it was wrong and I knew I should have challenged it, but I just didn't know what to say.

Catherine Millan: And after I've done your training, now I know what to say and I'm definitely going to do something. A lot of what we talk about in the training is also around what do we mean by a psychologically safe work environment? What does that mean? And how do we make sure that happens? And we think about the four different stages of psychological safety. It talks about learner safety, contributor safety, challenger safety. And that for me, it's almost like the aim, this is the aim of why we're doing the training. Because we want to be able to reach or to say our teams, we all have psychological safety because that's when we know we'll bring our best selves to work.

Catherine Millan: So then that then kind of puts us in a really good position to say, oh, okay, well all of these behaviors then, are they going to make somebody feel not psychologically safe if they're coming in and they're having their gender questions? Or is it going to make a female Asian consultant feel like she can contribute when her competencies are being questioned all of the time? So then that enables us to then, to really break down some of these everyday behaviors and then we train them to see them as forms of microaggressions. So then I think why we're seeing a really big impact across the NHS and with those clients is because we're giving them a toolkit and the feedback is saying, like, we feel empowered now on how to have those conversations, or I feel more empowered now to go and report it. And we've got...

Catherine Millan: I've got one client who I worked with, one of my first ever clients, and they're still with us now, and we're just about to celebrate our third birthday in February. For me, the feedback is always talking about confidence, talking about, I've got those skills now, I'm definitely going to do something next time. And for me, when I read that, I'm like, yeah, we've achieved our goal. They might not necessarily be experts in anti racism or LGBT inclusion, but a lot of them realize that's the long life working, that they need to go away and do so. For me, the active bystander is the one that gets everybody on the same page, really thinking about culture, how do we want our workplaces to be? And then here's some tools to go out and do it and make it happen and make them feel empowered.

Toby Mildon: Yes. I think, what I'm understanding you saying is that the active bystander approach is a really good way of empowering people to be able to address things like microaggressions in the workplace. And we've done several episodes about microaggressions. And yeah, you mentioned, for example, if you're working in the health service and you're a female Asian doctor, and if your competencies are constantly being called into question, that can really have a jabbing effect.

Catherine Millan: Yeah, definitely.

Toby Mildon: So, before you go, what does inclusive growth mean for you? 

Catherine Millan: So inclusive growth, to me, I think, means the acceptance and the commitment of lifelong learning to always improve and almost be vulnerable and say, like, I know I'm not an expert, but I'm always constantly going to work towards it, because I think even for me, the head of an EDI consultancy, I'm still learning every day. And you'll know yourself being in this space, especially when it comes to things like language and what's used and what is best for communities. I think we need to have a bit of vulnerability to be like, we know we're going to evolve and we're not there yet. So I think, for me, when I'm talking about inclusive growth, it's always something that we acknowledge that we're always going to constantly be working towards this and we should never stop because there's always going to be something where we can make it that little bit better, we can make it that little bit more accessible. So, yeah, I think it's just that acknowledgement that you've got to grow and you've got to accept that it's okay if you don't get it wrong all the time, but that's part of the journey.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I love what you've just said because whenever we do training around inclusive leadership, we use the perceptions framework that was created by Talagy and they've come up with six inclusive leadership behaviours and two of those behaviours are having a learning orientation. So what you're saying is just constantly soaking up new information, knowledge, learning, growing your skills and being open minded. And I think that we are EDI practitioners ourselves, but we must never rest on our laurels. I can't be an expert in everything, neither can you. And I think that that's the thing we've got to... Yeah, we've got to constantly be sharpening our saw.

Catherine Millan: Yeah. And it's exciting. And I always say to people, like, don't almost kind of see it as like a journey. And it's like, yeah, this is exciting. We're going to learn more. And I think now with, I think how the growth of people investing in EDI, in terms of people, 10 years ago there weren't jobs, there wasn't everything. There's a real opportunity now for us to do some really impactful work that is going to change system processes for next generations. But in acknowledgment with also the current climate, there's also still a lot of work for us to do. But let's kind of embrace it as like, it's a journey that it's... It's a career that you can have a really good kind of, I don't know, I think the way that I just see it, I'm kind of like, I've never been happier in my career and yes, it's really difficult sometimes the topics and things that I've got to talk about.

Catherine Millan: But ultimately for me, I know that I'm kind of making the workplace more inclusive and hopefully it'll have that effect on society and everything as well. And that for me excites me. And I think that's what I always say to people who work in this space. Like always think about that bigger picture of like, what is it that we're trying to achieve in terms of what do we want the world to be? What do you want your children, how do you want the workplace to be for them? So, yeah.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. Now before you go, I promise this is my last question.

Catherine Millan: No, it's okay.

Toby Mildon: If the person listening to us right now wants to follow you, maybe they want to reach out because they're interested in active bystander training in their own organization. How can they do that? 

Catherine Millan: Yes, definitely. So I am on LinkedIn, so if you search for me, Catherine Millan on LinkedIn, I'm very active on there. One of the campaigns that I've started is called Microaggression Mondays. So we always post about every day microaggressions on a Monday, how to respond to them using the active bystander technique. So if you do want to learn a little bit more, definitely give us a follow. We're on Instagram, so it's at Be What You See Ltd and then we've also got a website with details about all of our services as well. So that's www.bewhatyouseeltd.co.uk, yeah, so definitely. Or search us in Google. I think I come up like the first three or four searches for some of the work and stuff that I've done. So, yeah, just reach out to us. Like I said, we work across health, education, we're in the cultural arts sector, telecoms, communications and we work with any client who's having problems around workplace discrimination. So, yeah, we love to hear from you.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, Catherine, thanks ever so much for joining us today. It's been lovely to catch up with you, as always. And yeah, I mean, I'll see you soon. You're only down the road.

Catherine Millan: Yes, definitely. Thank you for having me.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth show with myself and my guest today, Catherine. Hopefully you've learned a lot about tackling workplace discrimination, what it means to be an active bystander, the approach that we can take to being an active bystander and how that links into really empowering people to tackle things like microaggressions within the workplace, which can be found everywhere. So hopefully you've taken away something interesting from our conversation today that you can start to think about applying in your own organisation. Catherine is available along with her team to support you in that, as am I. You can reach out to us through LinkedIn, through our websites. So if there's anything that either of us can do to help you create an inclusive culture where everybody in your business can thrive, then we're here to help. Until next time, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which will be coming out very soon. Take care. Bye-Bye.

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website @mildon.co.uk.