Inclusive Growth Show
I love driving diversity and inclusion at the leadership level. Each week, I host insightful conversations where we explore the journey of inclusive growth, discuss strategies for engaging senior leaders in equity, diversity, and inclusion, and share practical tips to inspire and empower meaningful change.
Inclusive Growth Show
Bravery in the Boardroom: Building Inclusive Leadership with Monique Carayol
Are organisations truly moving the needle on boardroom diversity, or are they just ticking boxes?
In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Podcast, host Toby Mildon sits down with leadership coach and consultant Monique Carayol, founder of Bravery in the Boardroom. With over 20 years of experience in the NHS and a proven track record in diverse leadership development, Monique shares practical strategies for creating more inclusive, representative senior leadership teams.
Tune in to discover:
- Why diversity at board level is critical for equitable decision-making.
- The pitfalls of quick-fix diversity initiatives and how to avoid them.
- How inclusive recruitment panels often fall short—and what actually works.
- The role of brave conversations in driving sustainable culture change.
- Practical steps to attract and develop diverse senior talent.
Guest spotlight:
Monique Carayol is the founder of Bravery in the Boardroom, a movement dedicated to increasing diverse representation in senior leadership. With a background in strategy and transformation, she champions brave leadership in complex environments.
If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Speaker 2:Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Monique Cariel podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Monique Cariel, and it's fantastic to sit down with Monique because I met Monique at a conference called she Leads for Legacy Conference, which is actually organised by Sharon Emisu, who was my guest on the previous episode. So if you want to listen into my conversation with Sharon and why she founded and set up the she Leads for Legacy conferences, then please tune into the previous episode.
Speaker 2:But I met Monique at the conference. She founded an amazing organization called Bravery in the Boardroom which looks at the diversity and representation of people working at that boardroom level and within senior leadership levels. Monique has got a great background herself in terms of leadership and can really walk the talk when it comes to acting as an inclusive senior leader within organisations. So it's really good to catch up with Monique. We're going to be talking about why she founded Bravery in the Boardroom. We're going to be talking about the importance of diversity and representation at senior levels of an organisation and some really practical things that you can do to address the diversity of people within your leadership pipeline as well. So, monique, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3:You're most welcome and thank you for the invitation Toby.
Speaker 2:So I gave a bit of a brief overview there, but could you just give us a bit more of an introduction as to who you are, your background, what you do, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:For sure, for sure, thank you. Thank you. I feel, oh my gosh, I've got a hard act to follow with what you said there. So I am a leadership coach and consultant and I, as you said, I founded the Bravery in a Boardroom movement which we'll talk about a little bit more. In the moment my focus is on leadership and talent development and particularly working with mid to senior level leaders in very busy, complex, challenging environments. So I say, when the fire is really hot, how do we really support and encourage our leaders to lead bravely? And it stems from my previous career. So I had a 20 year career in the NHS. I started off as a PA and I navigated my way into the boardroom and then I was a director of strategy and transformation for five years.
Speaker 3:The last five years of my time in the NHS, in the NHS and why I moved into this world, is two things. One is because I've always been a change agent. You know, I've always been someone who can drive and influence large scale change. But I also was really good at building dynamic, diverse teams. And when I got into the boardroom, I was the youngest director at the time. I was the only black director at the time. I'm a mum of three. I'm not the average person you'd see in a public sector boardroom, but I was the only black director at the time. I'm a mum of three. I'm not the average person you'd see in a public sector boardroom, but I was able to thrive there. I had equity of voice. I worked really well. But that isn't because of me. That's because of some of the dynamics that were surrounding me and it really is about what fueled me to step into this space sharing what I know, sharing how I did it, but, most importantly, working with organizations about how they can actually develop more diverse, inclusive boardrooms successfully.
Speaker 2:Amazing. So, when you founded Bravery in the Boardroom, what were some of the specific challenges that you were seeking to address?
Speaker 3:that you were seeking to address. It's a great question. The vision for bravery in the boardroom wasn't quite what it is now, but what I did know was I was fed up of all the talk, so part of our strapline is turning the dial now, and me and my co-founders, what we were saying was there's so much going on, there's so much conversation, but what actually is cutting through this and turning the dial now? What really is the game? What are the game changers in not only seeing more representation at boardroom level but seeing it sustained, you know, seeing senior talent go into the boardroom and stay there, and where's the opportunity to have the brave conversation that galvanises real action?
Speaker 3:We couldn't see this anywhere. And what we also couldn't see was where's the space where you have those who are underrepresented moving into the boardroom and being able to share their journey and story at the same time as senior decision makers who are in the majority and hold some of that power? Where were those conversations coming together to actually look at some of the barriers and blockers and how you can move, push through them? So we wanted to create a space where it was safe to have those brave conversations, but actually it wasn't only underrepresented colleagues trying to push through. It was actually inviting senior decision makers to come and learn and share and feel that you could be open about where you are on your inclusion journey.
Speaker 2:So why do you believe that it's really important that we have inclusive representation at boardroom level in organisations today, and why it's essential for them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. Well, first and foremost, in this country, in the UK, the working age population is more diverse than ever before, you know, and if we look at the latest census figures, we see how high diversity is, and particularly in certain parts of the country. So if you have a leadership, you know a leadership team or a board team that doesn't represent who they are serving, both in who they are serving, both in who you are serving in terms of people who work in the organization, but who you are serving in terms of your products, your services, your care. You know I came from the NHS, but if you don't have that representation, actually how are you able to serve equitably and fairly? You know, how do you understand where you're being exclusive? How do you understand if you don't see the lenses that you're looking through?
Speaker 3:So having that diversity of thought, voice, understanding, lived experience and expertise at the most senior level, I think is crucial, and it's not just about by sight. It's also about, if you have diversity at senior level, that the people who are underrepresented have equity of voice. Okay, and I think when I said to you, when I shared with you there about when I got into the boardroom, I did have equity of voice. That, to me, is what underpins true representation. I may be different, I may have not been what people expected to be in the boardroom, but I had the technical ability to do my job and my chief exec did ensure that I had equity of voice and I was, you know, a fully paid up member of the executive team. I wasn't there as a token.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And as you were speaking, I was thinking that because obviously you've got a background in the NHS and healthcare and I've interviewed people on this podcast who background in the NHS and healthcare and I've interviewed people on this podcast who work in the NHS and they've said that it's really important that we have representation within the health service, because anybody can walk through hospital doors Everybody. The NHS is a universal public service, so everybody and anybody needs access to healthcare. And I remember having a conversation with Sharon, who I interviewed on the previous episode, who both you and I know offline. This is an offline conversation and she was sharing with me about the inequality that black women were receiving in maternity care. She was telling me about some research that there was an assumption by midwifery employees that black women could handle more pain than white women and then they were not receiving the same access to pain relief drugs and therefore the number of incidents during childbirth was higher for black women and that was really eye-opening. I didn't realise that at the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the inequalities are stark, you know, and I'm glad you made that point, because representation on its own is not going to help to address those health inequalities. But, as I said, if we've got equity of voice and if you've got representation across key decision-making spaces, so the boardroom is the obvious one, right? I was a commissioner for 10 years in my NHS career and actually holding the budget, holding contracts, holding responsibility for how services were bought, you know how they were procured, and actually it was really important that I had partnership groups and boards where we had user and carers and local residents as part sitting at the table with us. You know, providers at the table with us. I may have held the ultimate decision, but it was really about having that co-production and co-creation and co-challenge. I did. You know I'd add that in there, that co-challenge space where actually, as a commissioner, you check yourself.
Speaker 3:If you've got your local residents and users with you at the table, you really have to think about the decisions you're making and why you're making them and, as you say there, that example of whose voice isn't heard, you've got, you know, a group of people working together. You are more likely to be aware of who you are excluding when you've got that breadth of thought, thinking and experience, isn't it? Then, if it's just, it's only us, you know the officials, if you like who hold that decision and we're looking through a very narrow lens. So I would just encourage people to think about, whilst we've been focusing on the boardroom and we know why because that's where there is a collective amount of power. Actually, it is good practice to think about that at every step of what you have autonomy over. You know whose lens are we looking through. How could we open up the decision making here and increase the diversity around the table?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. So. What are some of the common mistakes that you see organisations make when they're trying to achieve greater diversity at that board level and the senior leadership level?
Speaker 3:Panic, you know. So, working with recruitment agencies, just give us a diverse shortlist. You know, give us a diverse longlist, give us a diverse shortlist. As long as it looks different, almost that's okay, and not always connecting up on the actually. What is it we need? What are our gaps in terms of our thinking as well, you know, in terms of how we work, what are our strengths as a group? Where does that play in to it? And if you are just bringing someone in and you parachute in that diversity, you know how inclusive and welcoming is the space and the team that you're bringing them into. So quite often, you know it's not from ill intention, not at all but thinking about, if you are going to be inviting someone in or you're looking to recruit, also being able to get some support and challenge about how inclusive are you in terms of how you're working, how you behave and how you lead, because usually it's about doing those two things hand in hand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can totally resonate with everything you've said. These are the conversations that I've had with my clients who are thinking about how they nurture their talent pipeline for senior leaders in the future. Now, as we were preparing to record this episode, you previously mentioned that inclusive recruitment panels are often seen as a game changer, but they often fall short as well. Can you just elaborate on why this approach isn't enough?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I think. First of all, I think it's an approach that's commonly taken because it's fairly straightforward. It's fairly straightforward we can upskill colleagues to be ready and available to step onto panels. We have candidates who are coming in. We know we're not diverse but they're going to see someone here on the panel that may look like them and that might put them at ease and help them to see that diversity.
Speaker 3:However, if whoever's been invited to join the panel to make it more inclusive has no autonomy, doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Might make someone feel a little more at ease, of course, across the table, but if they've got no autonomy, if there is bias being expressed or you know at play evidence in the decision making that is happening, you know through the interview process, if that person has no autonomy, they can't challenge it, can't do anything about it actually. So for me there's something about are we training? Are we providing training, support and challenge to our recruitment panel chairs who ultimately usually hold the decision. You know of who, and that might be the, you know the hiring manager, or it could be someone else. Who's the chair on the panel? They're the ones who ultimately make the final decision. They are the ones who we need to be ensuring are aware and have got their bias radar on. That's what's going to make the difference. Not having diversity on the panel and actually you're really devaluing that person's time and contribution if they've got no autonomy.
Speaker 2:Totally agree with you. Let's talk about box ticking. I like that phrase. It's something I mentioned in both of my books Inclusive Growth and Building Inclusivity. Sometimes I call it box ticking, sometimes I call it window dressing. How can organisations move beyond these kind of box ticking initiatives to implement practices that really truly sustain diversity and equity at the top of an organisation in leadership roles?
Speaker 3:Gosh, it's a big factor. A couple of things that really sit front of mind for me is um, let's put aside quick wins for a minute, okay, because if we look at quick wins and it's a common term and phrase we hear using we need some quick wins, we need to fire this up, we need some momentum. I'm sure you will experience this as well, toby. If you're working with an organization who've been doing some work, you know, on inclusion and creating more inclusive cultures, they're somewhere on the journey. They usually would have carried out their quick wins already, ok, and what happens is the next phase of work will feel harder, will be uncomfortable, and what I notice is we have some leaders who definitely have the right intention, but when they hit the discomfort phase, they back away. You know the courage and the bravery isn't there and they might not have the right support and they're not being held accountable. So you've got the autonomy as a senior leader to pull back, haven't you? You can pull back, you've got the autonomy.
Speaker 3:And I think quite often what happens is people are going, but we wanted, we said we were going to do this. Why is it not happening? You know what? Well, it's not happening if you're not willing to lean through the discomfort wherever that may be showing up. Now, is it a fear of difference? Is it actually my bias radar has gone off about myself? Okay, now what is it that's showing up? And if you're not willing to address that, you are going to keep circling round.
Speaker 3:And then what happens is I go back to the tick box exercises. I can do that, it's not too uncomfortable, it shows something. But you learn Six months, in nine months, in 12 months, in the tick box is not giving you the sustainable change. So you know, I'd really urge organisations, I'd urge senior level leaders. You know, when you are feeling that discomfort, you know nobody wants to stay in that space, but that's the time to get some support. You know, working with a trusted advisor, working with an organisation who can really help you through, that, I think, is what underpins trying to get past the tick box.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, what you're saying reminds me of two things. So, first of all, brené Brown, who I love her work. She talks about creating safe and brave spaces. So we often talk about the need to create safe spaces, create that psychological safety. What she's talking about is people feeling like they can speak up, they can raise concerns without any fear of backlash. But then she says, actually senior leaders need to go a step further, they need to facilitate brave spaces, they need to have those difficult, awkward, more meaningful conversations to make sure that everybody actually gets heard. Because one thing that she proposes is who are we actually creating safe spaces for? Are we creating a safe space for a board who are predominantly white, predominantly male, predominantly middle class, because safe spaces for them is very different to somebody who is from a minority background? Yes, in that kind of environment. So therefore, yeah, we need to go deeper, we need to create those brace spaces.
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, I just think so, so powerful. What you said there about you know, what comes to my mind is I delivered a workshop a couple of weeks ago with a senior leadership team. I delivered a workshop a couple of weeks ago with a senior leadership team and one sentence in the feedback was the space felt like you could be open and not be judged. You know and actually it's that, isn't it what you said there People being able to say where they're at and not being judged on that Held accountable to move forward. Yes, but that's different to feeling like you're being judged.
Speaker 3:And I think there's something else to raise here about social capital, toby, because I think what also happens is you may have some senior leaders individually, you know, who are ready to lean into the discomfort, who are ready to call out what they're seeing. You know this isn't right. This isn't where we. We're not doing what we said we would. You know, ready to call that out, but they also run that risk of losing social capital with their colleagues. You know, why are you the one kind of banging the drum? Why are you doing this? And I think that's an important point to raise as well. So, support for those who are willing to make the steps and lean into the discomfort sometimes needs to be a little bit more, because they can sometimes be ostracized by colleagues who are in the majority who don't want anyone to rock the boat, that much you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, Definitely. I think the other thing as you were sort of talking about avoiding the box ticking and the quick wins is, it reminds me of something I talk about in my book is the change management model by John Kotter, and what he says is, effectively there's three stages to change, and he says stage one is around creating the right environment for change, and then it is about identifying those quick wins. But that's because you want to get the ball rolling and build momentum. But you need to move beyond those quick wins quite quickly. You need to. That's where it's all about implementing and sustaining change. But that's the hard bit. That's where people start to lose steam and then you know, revert back to type. Basically, so it's about yeah, I think if you're a senior leader implementing EDI, it's about thinking how do we actually sustain change for the long run as well?
Speaker 3:And how do we build. So I speak with organizations and you may recall me saying this when we were at the conference with Sharon about. You know, this is about leadership. This is about leadership and it's about as a leader. I always ask that question, you know do you want to attract the best talent? You know most people don't say no to that, you know. But once you've attracted that, so number one, where are they? Because the best talent is everywhere. But number two, this is what we're talking about here, isn't it? Best talent comes in different packages, different shapes, different thoughts, different feelings, different appearances. You don't have to understand every single person, but you do need to have a commitment to want to create a space where they can come and do their best work. That's what that leaning into discomfort is, isn't it? I don't, I might not understand all of this, but actually I am still going to be brave and try and understand what it is that needs to be different and then follow through on it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You must have read my mind, because my next question to you is actually about attracting talent, because I don't know about you, but something I quite hear often is well, we've just got a lack of diverse talent for senior positions because the people just don't have the experience or the skills. And I hear it in other disciplines as well. I hear oh, there's a lack of diverse talent in a particular sector, for example, like technology or engineering. What's your thoughts on that? You know, how can organizations take practical steps to address this kind of perceived quote-unquote lack of diverse talent in senior leadership pipelines?
Speaker 3:yeah, I mean, I think one is what I just mentioned. Well, where are you looking, isn't it? Because quite often, where people are looking is not necessarily where you are going to find. If you're looking in the same place and that pool that you're looking in, everyone is the same. Well, the diverse talent isn't in there. So there's something about where you're looking. There's something about how you're growing.
Speaker 3:You mentioned pipeline. What are you doing with your own internal pipeline? Because more often now in organizations we are seeing more diversity across junior levels in quite a lot of organizations and even industries, as you said, historically haven't been diverse. So what are you doing and what can you do?
Speaker 3:You know, to actually grow your own and build your own pipeline internally, because we've got a starting point where we have got a lack of diversity across senior leadership levels. So if you are looking for someone and your must have experience criteria, you know is 20 points long and actually there's nobody from a diverse background in those roles right now, well, you're not going to, they're not going to match, are they? So that check and challenge of how much on your essential criteria is actually essential to deliver the ask yeah, because there's something there, isn't it? Otherwise you can't nobody's going to be there because there's nobody out there who has broken the glass ceiling to get into the role. But also the point I made before about in some industries, like in the NHS, where you have seen an increase in diversity, unfortunately you're also seeing an increase in the revolving door because the environments are not yet inclusive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's why it's important that we talk about diversity and inclusion. A mentor of mine says that diversity is a given, but inclusion is a choice. We live in a diverse country. There is diversity of talent out there, but it's like you have to create the environment in the organisation where people feel included, that they belong, belong, that they're respected for who they are, they're empowered to do their best work and ultimately want to progress in the organization and they can put their head above the parapet yeah right, because I think when you are stepping up in some more senior roles, there is a whole thing about backing yourself, isn't there?
Speaker 3:you know? You feeling brave enough to do it, but also feeling what you said. That you know when you said safe and brave spaces, you feel safe enough to put your head above the parapet, you know, and to kind of say this is what I'm about, this is what I'm here to do, this is what I can do, and that's how I got my promotion into the boardroom. I got internally promoted, you know, but actually I knew I learned a lot on the job. I put my head above the parapet to gain further experience and then I had to. I had to really pull myself up, you know, to say actually you're not a board member now. So if you're going to go into that interview and that stakeholder panel, they need to be able to close their eyes and see me in the boardroom. So there was that something about me also really pulling up and role modeling that I could be a board level director, you know that's about your own self-development, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and your own personal responsibility and accountability. Yes, so everyone's got a responsibility, like the organization's got responsibility to create a good environment, but then you as an individual have also got a responsibility to to grow, develop, step up yeah, but also recognizing that sometimes it doesn't feel safe enough for people yeah, so it's, and hence why I talk about the two sides of the coin.
Speaker 3:I think, though, if we can move and look at and work on so supporting organisations, to commission programmes of support that work with both sides of the coin colleagues in the majority, you know leaders with higher responsibility, working with them and also working with colleagues who are underrepresented to, like you said, have that bravery to pull up and self-develop and grow, to be ready for promotion.
Speaker 2:Well, when you look at the Patrick Lencioni five dysfunctions of a team pyramid, the bottom two are so important because you've got right at the bottom, you've got you need to create trust. Dysfunctional teams don't trust one another. They have that psychological safety and then they start to gossip and brush things under the carpet. Then the layer above that, you've got healthy conflict, or constructive conflict, because dysfunctional teams say they avoid conflict, they don't have difficult, awkward conversations, they start gossiping, they start stabbing each other in the back. So leaders need to make sure that they're developing trust and they've got that healthy conflict going on, or radical candor.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I love Kim's work. It's so true, but I think what you just said there, toby, connects up, doesn't it? So, actually, if you don't have that layer of healthy conflict, you're not going to lean into the discomfort that we were talking about earlier, right?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. What does inclusive growth mean for you, particularly when we think about contributing to creating more equitable leadership structures?
Speaker 3:I think for me, it really is about understanding and removing your equity barriers. You know, and I say that as an individual and I say that as a collective. So whether you hear that in terms of me, you know, you as the individual, you as the leader in the role that you have, you as an organisation, Because if you can understand where your equity barriers are, you've then got that next step, isn't it? The discomfort might show up, but then it's making that commitment to remove them. Yeah, because, if we can, I think that that is a game changer on both sides of the coin that I described before. Yes, understanding and removing your equity barriers. Whether they're personal, you know and they're within your gift to sort out your equity barriers. Whether they're personal, you know and they're within your gift to sort out whether, as a leader, you can see them in who, how you're leading and what you're leading the team, whether that's the organization, you know, and they're more systemic in terms of that. That, for me, is what encapsulates how you can grow inclusivity.
Speaker 2:Amazing. So, monique, I've learned so much from you in the last half an hour or so.
Speaker 3:Right back at you.
Speaker 2:It's been amazing to catch up with you. If the person listening to us right now wants to connect with you, maybe they've got some questions that they want to ask you offline. Follow your work. What should they do?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you. So, number one, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I talk all things brave leadership there and also you can follow the bravery in the boardroom page. I describe bravery in the boardroom as a movement you know, so follow the page, get involved. Connect. We always talk about our events there. You can also find out more. So what I've said in you know we've tried to boil it down in our conversation, but please also take a look at the Bravery in the Boardroom insights video. We did a video rather than a traditional rapport, but it really boils down in six chapters Some of what we've been talking about here and what is it that is turning the dial now on increasing diverse senior talent pipelines and inclusive leadership. So if we can share the links to those, that would be brilliant, toby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll put a link to the website and the video in the show notes of this episode. Monique, thank you ever so much for joining me today it's been amazing to catch up with you and thanks for doing all of the hard work, and I wish you the best of luck and I can't wait to see what you manage to achieve with the movement, as you say.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you so much for the time and allowing us to share more about bravery in the boardroom with your audience today. Thank you.
Speaker 2:You're welcome and thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast with Monique and myself. Hopefully, you've taken away some fresh ideas, insights, things that you can start to apply in your own organization. As Monique says, please do reach out to her if you want to learn more about bravery in the boardroom and her movement and all of the great work that her and her team are doing. And, as always, if there's anything that I can do to help you create a more inclusive culture in your organisation and develop your leaders, then please reach out to us through our website. Until the next time, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode, which will be coming up very soon. Take care, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildencouk.