Inclusive Growth Show
I love driving diversity and inclusion at the leadership level. Each week, I host insightful conversations where we explore the journey of inclusive growth, discuss strategies for engaging senior leaders in equity, diversity, and inclusion, and share practical tips to inspire and empower meaningful change.
Inclusive Growth Show
Creating Safer Workplaces: Insights from Dr. Enya Doyle
What does it take to build a harassment-free workplace?
In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Show, Toby Mildon is joined by Dr. Enya Doyle, also known as The Harassment Doctor. With her expertise in harassment prevention, Dr. Doyle shares actionable strategies to address workplace harassment and cultivate accountability.
Discover key insights, including:
- How the new Worker Protection Act impacts workplace harassment policies.
- Why increased harassment reports might signify a positive cultural shift.
- The role of intersectionality in creating inclusive policies.
- Practical steps to foster accountability and safety across all levels of an organisation.
Dr. Doyle’s perspective challenges organisations to rethink their metrics and embrace proactive cultural audits.
Connect with Dr. Doyle on LinkedIn or Instagram (@TheHarassmentDoctor). Tune in to learn how your organisation can create lasting, inclusive change.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Speaker 2:Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Dr Enya Doyle, and Dr Enya Doyle is the harassment doctor. So we're going to be talking about harassment and bullying and things like that in the workplace and what organisations can learn from Dr Doyle's experience. So, enya, thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's lovely to see you.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me, toby. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:Could you begin by just telling us a bit more about your role as the harassment doctor, because that's a really cool job title.
Speaker 3:Sure, thank you. Yeah, there are two things that are true about me. One is that I have a PhD, and the other is that I spend an awful lot of time talking about harassment, so I combined the two to make it easy to figure out what I do and what I'm about. So I work with companies of all sizes largely across Europe to prevent and also manage harassment. I do an awful lot of work on sexual harassment, but also thinking across other forms of discrimination. In the UK, we're thinking about the Equality Act there, obviously, and I've been doing that largely since I finished my PhD in 2020, and that looks like delivering training. It also is audits of culture, and then I'm also on retainer for leaders who don't have time to figure everything out on their own.
Speaker 2:What was your thesis when you did your doctorate?
Speaker 3:So my thesis was on barriers to gender equity in classical music, particularly in cathedral music. So it was a long period of time, but it was definitely a foundation for what I do.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. So how did you end up choosing to work in this area as your vocation?
Speaker 3:you end up choosing to work in this area as your vocation.
Speaker 3:I think after well, during academia, during that period of time where I just continued to stay in education and I thought I might not ever leave the education sector, I find myself having lots of conversations about people as though they were abstract concepts and about power as though it wasn't real, as though it was like a philosophical term that kind of affected historical things, and going to conferences across the world and having conversations as though our research wasn't having impact anywhere else, and largely in higher education, those who are listening, who are thinking well, you know, that's what the whole REF system is for. I certainly find that, even though my research, I interviewed loads of people and I was looking at the impact that we could have with the research, lots of it wasn't being translated. There are very few people, even the most curious of minds, that are going to sit down and read a hundred thousand words of my thesis, although, obviously, if you want to, you're more than welcome to and you can find it online. It's open access.
Speaker 2:So why specifically are you interested in harassment within the arts, education and the music sector?
Speaker 3:I think it's I who I have been. I've always used music as a as an escape. I grew up playing loads of instruments. I have three music degrees. Loads of my friends are musicians, um, so it was a kind of space of comfort. I knew all of the barriers. I knew what people were experiencing. I had a kind of very firsthand experience of what it felt like to be on the outside, um, and then going through my research, going through my degrees, learning about different ways that people were included and excluded and the safety that people did and didn't feel, particularly in the arts, and so that kind of inspiration was this can't be right. Like this can't be what's actually happening. This can't be so widespread. Maybe I am in an echo chamber where we're talking about this, but it turns out that's not true. It is everywhere. It's very widespread.
Speaker 2:So you and I are recording this episode just at the end of 2024, and there's been a lot of changes in the industry, so we've seen the introduction of new legislation that has a direct impact on harassment within the workplace. We've also seen some pretty high profile harassment cases of TV presenters, for example in the media as well. Maybe highlights is the wrong word, but what are the kind of key moments from 2024 stick out for you and what do you think the landscape is looking like for 2025?
Speaker 3:I think the Worker Protection Act is an obvious, actual highlight. I laughed when you said highlights, highlights. I think it. Probably it's a highlight with an asterisk because I think a lot of companies won't take it seriously until the first person falls on their sword. The first company falls on their sword for it, and so we see that you know it's actually going to be taken seriously in legislation rather than just a talking point.
Speaker 3:On prevention, I think I often spend my life saying that when people are in the news whether it's Muhammad Al-Fayed or Greg Wallace or anyone else when people are in the news for being held accountable in kind of capital letters or otherwise, whether that's by the police or the media or by the workplace that's a positive thing. It's a positive thing for my work because it means that people are talking about it. Not all of the information out there is correct and we often don't get the full story until years later, but the story is out there. So I think 2024 has been a year of okay. This isn't just one bad apple. This isn't just one person in one institution over there. Nothing to do with me Wouldn't happen in my workplace. I wouldn't be friends with someone like that. I'm not in a relationship with someone who would do X, y or Z my boss wouldn't do that, my line manager wouldn't do that. Someone I line manage wouldn't do that.
Speaker 3:We're now in a space where we're not really surprised to see these people in the press anymore. I think 2016, harvey Weinstein. We were surprised to see it in the press, not least because of NDAs and what we now know about non-disclosure agreements that kept them from being in the press. But I think you know, if we look back on the last seven years, that change in oh, another one in the press. But I think you know, if we look back on the last seven years that change in oh, another one in the press and hoping, as we look into 25, that we don't get desensitized to how horrible and illegal and confronting that is for the people who are on the receiving end of that, I think that's probably my fear for 2025 is that we'll become very desensitized to the fact that people abuse power everywhere that power exists. But I'm also hopeful that we'll see more people being held accountable on large in the press and hopefully, as wasn't the case with Mohammed Al-Fayed, they'll actually be alive to see accountability.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and since working with the organisation, so the clients that you've been working with what are some of the positive outcomes that you've seen?
Speaker 3:I tend to say to clients when I meet them for the first time that if we do this work well, reports will rise and companies who are doing this for the first time seem very panicked. It's like deer in the headlights when I say that to this for the first time. Seem very panicked. It's like deer in the headlights when I say that to them for the first time. But I tend to say to them that you will get more reports of harassment and that is a good thing. It will plateau eventually, but you want more reports of harassment because that indicates that people feel safe reporting it to you. They actually know where the processes and policies are and those processes and policies actually work in the organization. So that's a kind of short-term response. The kind of medium term is that you will start to prevent these incidents from occurring. You will see themes, you will notice places. You will know everyone knows that Christmas parties places. You will know everyone knows that Christmas parties, end of year parties, are places where this goes horribly wrong. You will be able to see that.
Speaker 3:I do a lot of work with freelance musicians who know that that's just the precarity of being out of power, that's the precarity of being in their situation and in their position. We know that interns are at high risk because of the nature of their job, because of the nature of them not having power, because of the nature of them not being able to kind of report, because they're afraid that they won't get a permanent contract. We see that all of the time. So making sure that on the medium term, you're preventing it for everyone and preventing it for everyone in an intersectional way. It's not just white women of a certain age that tend to be sexually assaulted or sexually harassed in the workplace. It's everyone. So getting them into that kind of you will be looking at this all the time in loads of different ways and your processes will evolve, and that will be a good thing. We don't want to be rewriting these annually. They need to be updated. Live when you learn new information.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. What does inclusive growth mean for you?
Speaker 3:I think it means accountability. When I see companies doing this well, they're not afraid of being held accountable, they're not afraid of apologising, they're not afraid of it going wrong, they're not scared of the consequences, because they want there to be consequences, and they're also fostering that accountability and responsibility across the entirety of the company. So I think when people are growing, it looks like accountability.
Speaker 2:Definitely. It reminds me of the. I don't know if you've ever read the book the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni. Yeah, and he's got a pyramid and he talks about the top of the pyramid. You've got results, focused, and then underneath that you've got accountability. So I think it is about particularly the work that you do. I guess it's about focusing on the results, not being scared that there might be an increase in people reporting harassment. That's actually a good sign because it's demonstrating that people feel safe to be able to speak up. And then, once you've got that insight, then I suppose it's about taking action where it really matters and that's where the accountability comes in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and the metrics that you are using now will change, and the way that you approach those metrics will also change. And I think that's the thing that I see in a lot of companies who want to do the right thing but aren't currently getting the results in terms of the safety of their people is that they've got metrics, but those metrics aren't the ones that they need to be reporting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what should they be reporting?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of it is the small things. I think microaggressions have got a good and a bad rep across the EDI space. But I think if you don't know where to start and you don't think that people in your company are going to report the big things, then finding ways to do the small things. And I do spend an awful lot of time talking about anonymous reporting for that, because snitch culture doesn't just happen in schools. People are afraid of the consequences as adults too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Now. If the person listening to us right now wants to follow your work, perhaps they've got some questions for you that they want to ask you offline. What should they do?
Speaker 3:The best way to get in touch with me is on LinkedIn, Dr Anya Doyle. Similarly, if you like the Harassment Doctor, you can follow me on Instagram at the Harassment Doctor.
Speaker 2:Brilliant Well, anya. Thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's been lovely to catch up with you. Thanks for all of the hard work that you do to try and stamp out harassment within workplaces and I hope you continue to make an impact in 2025. Thanks, toby Doyle and myself. Hopefully you've got some insights into how you could tackle harassment in your organisation. If there's anything that Dr Enya Doyle or I could do to support you on your journey to creating more inclusive cultures, then please feel free to reach out to either of us. Dr Enya Doyle is available on LinkedIn, as I am, and also my website, mildencouk. Until the next episode, thanks for tuning in and I look forward to seeing you soon. Cheers, take care, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildencouk.