Unlocking the Potential of Age Diversity in the Workplace Artwork

Inclusive Growth Show

I love talking about diversity and inclusion - and that’s exactly what I do in this podcast, ‘The Inclusive Growth Show’. Each week, I interview diversity and inclusion experts, thought leaders and senior business leaders making an impact in the working world - all to help you cultivate your own culture of inclusive growth!

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Unlocking the Potential of Age Diversity in the Workplace

October 29, 2024 • Toby Mildon • Episode 141

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How can businesses unlock the potential of a multi-generational workforce? Join Toby Mildon and Michael O'Reilly, founder of the Age Diversity Network, as they discuss tackling ageism and leveraging the strengths of an age-diverse team.

Episode Overview

In this episode of The Inclusive Growth Podcast, Toby Mildon speaks with Michael O'Reilly, founder of the Age Diversity Network, about:

The challenges and barriers older workers face in the job market
How ageism impacts organisational culture and recruitment
Practical strategies to attract, retain, and engage a multi-generational workforce

Key Takeaways

Recognising Age Bias: Many organisations unconsciously exclude older candidates, missing out on their wealth of experience and unique skills.
Redefining Recruitment: Small changes in the hiring process, such as valuing transferable skills and adjusting job descriptions, can open doors to older candidates.
Inclusive Work Environments: Encouraging collaboration between younger and older employees fosters learning, innovation, and resilience across teams.
Breaking Myths: Older workers are often ready to adapt, share knowledge, and even work under younger supervisors—shattering stereotypes about work preferences.

Guest Bio

Michael O'Reilly is the founder of the Age Diversity Network, an organisation committed to addressing ageism in the workplace. With a background in senior roles and lived experience of age-related barriers, Michael offers a unique perspective on how organisations can build inclusive, multi-generational teams.

Timestamps

0:00 – Introduction to the episode
3:10 – Michael shares his personal journey and inspiration behind the Age Diversity Network
10:45 – Common barriers older workers face when seeking employment
20:00 – How organisations can adapt recruitment practices to be more age-inclusive
30:15 – Success stories: Creating opportunities for older workers
40:50 – Key advice for organisations to foster age diversity

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website.

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon, and we're here to explore ways to create fair and inclusive workplaces that work for everybody. In this episode, I'm joined by Michael O'Reilly. He's the founder of Age Diversity Network. Michael has dedicated himself to addressing the challenges that older workers face in today's job market. And he's here to share insights on how ageism is impacting organisations, and what could be done to unlock the potential of a multi-generational workforce. So Michael, thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's lovely to meet you.

Michael O'Reilly: No, thank you for inviting me on.

Toby Mildon: So, Michael, my first question to you is, what is the Age Diversity Network?

Michael O'Reilly: Yeah, of course. Age Diversity Network was really born from my own experiences effectively. I was working reasonably senior roles in the city, and I found the older I got... When you're younger, everything's fantastic. You're doing great in your career, you're sort of moving up the ladder, more responsibility. Then all of a sudden you sort of seem to hit a plateau unless you are probably, I would say the most senior of senior people. And although I was reasonably senior, I'd hit a point where I was finding it a little bit more difficult to be included in some of the upcoming programmes and projects that were going on. And effectively, it got to a point I believe that because I was getting older, I maybe wasn't quite fitting in anymore. Although, I've been around for a while in their eyes as against being viewed as somebody with experience and knowledge that would help guide them in certain things.

Michael O'Reilly: I was probably seen as who knows, in their mind, out of touch or not moving with the times, which was complete rubbish to be honest with you. But it's just one of those things that you tend to come across and you can't always really prove a point that your age is having an issue in terms of how you are being treated at work. So after all that happened, I didn't fit in anymore. I was made redundant for my final role. So I decided to do consultancy work and the organisations that I was working with, it was very very different. It was, you were being welcomed with open arms because of the experience and knowledge that you had. And that was great for quite a while actually. But then even after a period of time in that, the older I got, so obviously we all get older every year, but the older I got I think it was getting to a point again where maybe it was not deemed as again, fitting in.

Michael O'Reilly: So the experience you have is one of being welcomed with open arms and bring that in. We need that type of experience and knowledge in our workplace. But then after a while, you find that you're not fitting in there either. So it was really really frustrating for me, and I spoke to a number of people that I used to work with, who were suffering the same type of treatment, if you like. And when I was going for roles, I was always nearly there. So if you are a betting man for horse racing, always picked at the posts, always came in second. So I realised there was something not quite right. So at that point I decided, yeah, this isn't right. Something is happening that really I want to work on and understand why. And when I understood why and it became more and more apparent that the ageism is a lot more prevalent out there than I had even realised. I thought, I want to do something about this. So the Age Diversity Network was born from that, which was effectively to sort of work with organisations and individuals that have been suffering from ageism either in their current workplace or when trying to find work. And that's how it all came about.

Toby Mildon: That's really interesting. Could you go on and tell us a bit more about the purpose of the Age Diversity Network and I suppose what your mission is?

Michael O'Reilly: Yeah, sure. I think we thought about a mission statement, but each time I look at it, I want to rewrite it. So I decided not to have a mission statement, but effectively the mission really is, it's twofold. One is to work with individuals that are struggling to either find work or to be included within their existing workplace. And they believe for whatever reason that it's their age that is creating that issue for them. And then to work with them to try and understand what barriers it is they're facing, what are they doing about it. So we work closely with them in terms of, if they're looking for work, for instance, it would be looking at their CV. How do they use social media? How do they actually search for the roles that they're looking for? How do they apply?

Michael O'Reilly: What medium do they use for applying? Whereas a lot of people tend to sort of use the same process day in day out, which is, they'll go on Indeed or LinkedIn or what have you, and just hit the apply button. CV will go off and then you get to hear nothing. So it's working with them to understand the information that they're sending out, I.e., the CV, is it the right sort of CV that they're sending out? Does it really truly show their skills and what they can offer the role and the organisation that they're applying to. And also to then sort of look at how they apply for these roles. So are there different methods that can be used? Are there certain aspects to their skills knowledge and what they've done in the past that they can convert into something that they can do in the future that doesn't necessarily relate to what it says on the CV?

Michael O'Reilly: So transferable skills for argument's sake. So we work with them to try and give them as much information as we can to improve their opportunities and their chances of actually applying for roles, that maybe they wouldn't have thought about in the past, but also to work on how they can follow these things up. 'cause often as we all know, there are an enormous amount of companies that just don't bother getting back to you. So the CV goes off and that's it. You hear absolutely nothing. So whether that's an organisation directly or whether that's through a recruitment company or whether it's through the talent acquisition department within an organisation. And there're good reasons to a degree why people won't get back to them, which is often based on the sheer volume of traffic they receive, that they can't do that.

Michael O'Reilly: But I still personally feel it's unacceptable and they could work a little bit differently. So we try and work with people how to get round those barriers. The other side is we work with organisations to really get them to understand the level of skills and expertise that are out there for the 50 plus generation, that they're missing out on. Again, there are untapped biases that they display everyday when they're recruiting and often they don't realise they're doing it, or don't understand why they're doing it. 'cause they just go in, do their job and decide who should be a fit and why. So we run workshops with organisations in how to try and develop a really intergenerational workforce. So multi-generations across the board, how they can all work together, how they can actually learn from each other, and how they can help each other and the organisation to get through.

Michael O'Reilly: So effectively by running these workshops, it opens up the mind and it opens up different processes for organisations if they want to follow them in how they can actually do their external recruiting into the company or how they can work with their existing members of staff who are in that bracket and try and merge the different age divisions together. And if they get it right, I think there's a lot of companies out there that would admit quite freely, that they understand it is a benefit that each side benefits. And it's about busting all the myths that are out there. Once you're even certain age, you're not interested. You are past it, can't teach an old dog new tricks and all this rubbish that we hear out there. And it is rubbish a lot of it because quite frankly, the older you get, the more you want to give back, most people.

Michael O'Reilly: It's not about sitting back and putting your feet up saying, I've done my bit, I don't want to do anymore. Often people will work at a much lower level than they have done in their permanent jobs. And now are saying, actually, I've done all of the career building, I'm happy to give some back, but I actually want to be doing something everyday. I don't just want to be sitting here on the telephone, on my computer applying for jobs. I physically want to be involved somewhere. And if that means stepping back two or three levels and I've been used to working, then so be it. But if I'm happy doing that, then one of the myths is if you've got all this experience, you're gonna be far too expensive and you won't wanna work for somebody younger. You won't wanna work for somebody who hasn't got as much experience as you've got. And again, that's another myth because that's not always the case. It may be on the odd case, of course, but generally speaking to everyone that we speak to, they're just happy to be a part of something that's going on and be involved in it. So by working with organisations, we try and drive through all of those barriers to a hopefully a positive outcome.

Toby Mildon: I like the use of your word barriers here because it's something that we use when we talk about disability. So we talk about the social model of disability and an individual's disabled by the barriers that are created in society, whether that's physical barriers, attitudinal barriers, procedural barriers, behavioural barriers. So it is really interesting use of the word there. Are there any other kind of key barriers that employers create that prevent older workers from either entering their organisation or being able to kind of stay within the organisation if they want to?

Michael O'Reilly: I think yes, because often what tends to happen is, let's take an example. If you've been in an organisation for, I don't know, 10, 15, 20 years, what tends to happen is that you are the go-to, for whatever. So your role that you are currently playing, you are probably deemed either an in-house expert or somebody who knows everything there is to know about that particular role that you are doing. And often because of that, it limits the opportunities that you may have elsewhere in the organisation. And it's a bit of, for me, a lack of forethought by organisations that don't recognise that somebody who has those skills to offer and the expertise knows how something works within an organisation that can't be adapted and transferred to a different part of the organisation. And to use those transferable skills that that person has. Because what tends to happen is, as I say, they get stuck in a rut, which is that role they're currently doing.

Michael O'Reilly: They will always be known for that. Therefore they will never, ever be considered for different roles. So often you'll find within organisations that do understand this is that there is some form of employee, you call it committee, the engagement organisations that they give them a voice so they come together with HR or with somebody in the organisation who may be working under the HR umbrella, but in the people space. So trying to understand things that would affect individuals and your current workforce can often be difficult because if it's down to one individual, the voice, their own concerns, often they may be labelled as somebody who's always moaning and groaning and a bit of a whinger and what have you. But if there's a platform for those people to have a voice, not to dictate, and that's dictation both ways from the organisation to employees and vice versa.

Michael O'Reilly: But the platform where they can get together on a regular basis, whether that's monthly, bimonthly, or quarterly to come up with ideas and suggestions on how they see things could be working within the organisation. And often that will be driven by your own personal experiences. So if we sort of try and dispel the why do you do things that way? Oh, well, it's always been done that way. Don't necessarily discount the fact that things can't be done differently, but also don't try and do things differently just for the sake of doing things differently. So it's a way to engage with employees and employer alike to actually have these discussions openly, internally. And I think the other sort of barriers that older workers face is if we look at the application cycle for applying for roles. So you're not actually in a company at the moment or you may be in a company looking for change, who knows.

Michael O'Reilly: But the automation and the way technology has improved and advanced so much often that creates its own barriers, purely because of the way things work. So if we look at things like ATS, so the automated tracking system for CVs that come in, unless you've got the right words or phrases in there, often you won't even get past the first phase of being included in someone putting their eyeballs to the CV if you like and saying, okay, should we look at this person? Yes or no? It creates its own issues in terms of there are often CVs to put it into context, I hear and sometimes advise, but it's not always the best advice because it can be very, very difficult is for people to try and craft a CV specifically around a role that they're applying for.

Michael O'Reilly: Now that's okay, but it's okay up to a point only, because if you've got somebody who is looking to apply for roles throughout the day, and they may well quite comfortably apply for half a dozen roles or more everyday because they're actually really desperate to find some work. You can't expect someone to rewrite their CV six times a day either. So it becomes very difficult. So that gets back to where we work with individuals to say, look, these are the sort of things that you can put on your CV that that may help. But I think because of the sheer volume, as I said earlier about the amount of CVs coming through, it's very difficult for organisations to actually assign the manpower to read these manual, like they used to years ago and gone on the days as we know that you sort of hand write a letter and put in an envelope with your CV and march up to an organisation saying for the HR director, can you please give them that, that doesn't happen anymore.

Michael O'Reilly: Everything's done via email or online applying here. So I think for me it's the recruitment aspect of how some of the older workers are. This affects everyone of any age, let's be fair. But I think if you're older, there are certain other things that maybe you might want to consider when you are actually applying online. But it really doesn't help. So for me, it creates not necessarily an efficient process. But alongside that, a bit of a lazy process. 'cause it's easy. We know 10, 20 years ago when computers really sort of cut... Started coming into play, you wanted to go for a loan, you'd go and see a friendly bank manager and have a chat with him or her and say, "okay, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm up to, these are my projected forecasts."

Michael O'Reilly: But now you can't necessarily do that. And then it started changing, computers say, no. That's it, you're buggered, you can't really do anything. And recruitment and that I think is going the same way. It's all about trying to build up personal relationships, which is very difficult to do when you are looking for a role. But often if you can do that, that's one of the ways around it. But it's really, really hard for people to physically do. So I think that they are quite main barriers for people who are searching for work, to be honest with you.

Toby Mildon: That's really interesting. Could you share an example of how you've helped an organisation expand the hiring process to include older workers?

Michael O'Reilly: Yeah, sure. We worked with an organisation where the median age of the employees there was in their 20s. And they're constantly looking for new blood. And I think because of the turnover of staff, it's not huge, but it's enough where they have to keep recruiting to backfill staff that are leaving in addition to taking on extra business where, they clearly need a few more staff anyway. And as a result of that, there was quite a high turnover and they realised that they weren't necessarily enticing or encouraging older workers to apply for their roles. And they couldn't quite, I suppose, work out why, but they realised the benefit was there. So just wanted some help in terms of how can they approach that. And one of the stories really was, although we did workshops with them, it was really, really good and they were very open about the barriers that they felt they had in terms of enticing older workers into them because they were seen as a younger organisation, them possibly putting off older workers to apply to them.

Michael O'Reilly: They were seen as an organisation that potentially because they had so many younger people working for them, that they wouldn't necessarily cater for the additional needs of an older worker. So we all know we often suffer a few health issues ourselves, or we might have somebody in our lives where we need to help care for them. And things change as you get older and to apply to an organisation that appears to be at least an organisation that is much younger often puts people off because they feel that they don't understand these needs, therefore they won't bother applying in the first place. But as it happened, one of the young managers there, did hire a guy in his 50s and when they were looking for additional people and I'll tell this story and I've gotta stop saying it 'cause... But I love it so much I often say it. This guy, let's call him Dave, turned up for work for them and they were blown away by the way he managed to integrate with the younger workforce, how he was with their customers, how his approach to the work was very, very different than say a younger worker. And when he was speaking to the internal recruitment manager about having an additional person that he needed on his team.

Michael O'Reilly: The response from them clearly would've been something like "well, what are you looking for?" And his response was, "I want another Dave." and that just goes to show when people experience and understand and get involved with having these different aged workers working together, that it's such a big plus for them. And it's often... It takes something like that for them to realise it's a light bulb moment for them. And often why didn't I think of that before? Or why didn't I open up my doors like that before? So I think, yeah, we worked with them, made them well I say made them, that's very strong. But they were very engaging. They understood some of the challenges that older workers faced. And the nice thing is by working with this organisation, it's not just about somebody preaching to them, it's somebody standing in front of them who has been there, who has lived through it, who has suffered from this.

Michael O'Reilly: So that's the slight difference, the advantage I've got, I'm not just someone waving a flag about ageism of somebody, I'm somebody who has been through it and they can understand that and understand my perspective, if you like. And I've got four kids ranging from 26 to 40. And the thing is that having worked with them in general life, I do interact with them and their friends. So for me, understanding younger generations, it's not just about my own family, it's about their friends in a wider aspect of their friends that I've dealt with over the years. I think it does work from private life through to company life. So yeah, I think it was a bit of an eye-opener, for this organisation, but they knew that there was something there they needed to do something about it.

Toby Mildon: Definitely, it always strikes me, 'cause when I was writing my book, my first book "Inclusive Growth", I made a comment in one of the chapters that in today's organisations we've got multiple generations working under one roof. So we've got the baby boomers all the way down to Gen Z and how we need to be inclusive of all age brackets or demographics because we've all got something that we can contribute or share. So this is a bit of a trope, but Generation Z, have grown up with technology. They've never known life without the internet. They were born after the iPhone was released all the way through to the baby boomers. And we've all got different working styles, different experiences, and we can all share those experiences and use that to help contribute to the success of the organisation. So it's about being respectful of all age brackets and inclusive of all age brackets as well. So I mean, what advice would you have for any organisation who's perhaps noticed that their workforce demographic is skewing towards, say, the predominantly younger end of the spectrum?

Michael O'Reilly: Okay. I think just to make it very clear we don't, and I don't operate on the basis of looking at stats and figures in terms of different ages within organisation and then either provide them with information or directives, if you like, of how that needs to be addressed. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what someone's age is, everyone needs to be included, being given an opportunity. And my message really for them is that there is so much out there just waiting to be grabbed. There's so many skills that people are crying out to give organisations by applying for their roles that are being discounted, that there's a raft of the older generation, if you like within the workspace that can really offer these organisations a huge benefit in terms of they're ready, willing, and able to work.

Michael O'Reilly: So for me, the message is quite clear to organisations don't mess about, don't preempt what you think the ideal candidate should look like. There's often too many things that are expected or asked for when a role is being advertised, that is unnecessary. And I think that often trips over into an older worker as well. So for me it's just understand what they can offer and include those people. With the organisations within their own shop, one of the things that I would say to them is that often you'll get companies, people in positions that will work and behave in such a way that because I am the leader, because I am the manager of whatever, I'm expected to know all the answers because that's what I'm paid for, isn't it? And that's a wrong attitude to have because we don't all know all the answers to everything.

Michael O'Reilly: It's as simple as that. So don't start thinking about making decisions on things that you don't really understand. Ask for help. That's why organisations like mine exist. If you really don't understand what it is you need to do, what you can do for your existing employees or for enticing new employees of an older generation, then ask. It's as simple as that. You don't have to take our advice, but at least we know what we're doing. We know what we're talking about. We've worked with many, many organisations over the years. So it's really about going out, reaching out, asking for help. But don't try and do things on your own. Don't try and come up with stats. Don't try and come up with readjusting what you believe is the right thing to do without really understanding why you are doing it.

Michael O'Reilly: It's, if we go back to things like looking at root cause, you only look for a root cause if you think there's a problem. And if there's a problem, what problem is that creating for the organisation? And if it's simply, we don't have enough good people, then that's fine. Are you excluding people that you shouldn't be excluding for whatever reason, whether that be through age, through disability, through their gender or whatever. So that's a general thing that age just happens to be one of them. But for my parting comment to organisations is, if you need help, ask for it. Reach out. You know where to find us.

Toby Mildon: So a question I ask everybody when they come on this show is, what does inclusive growth mean to you?

Michael O'Reilly: Okay, inclusive growth for me is quite simple. Again, it's down to not excluding anyone for any reason. If you have a role to fill or you have something to deliver as part of an organisation, what is it you need to help deliver this X, let's call it X. And the point, quite frankly, is it doesn't really matter whether that's a woman, whether that's a man, a person of colour, they're disabled, they're old, they're young, it's about inclusivity. So inclusive growth for me is collectively having a different set of, well call it set of criteria, but a different group of people that can all bring different things to the table. So if you put all of these people in the mix and you've got different points of views and also people who understand how it would impact them as an individual or people like them as an individual, whatever that may be, then surely that's gotta be a good thing.

Michael O'Reilly: Because again, if you've got somebody who is trying to make decisions across the board, so inclusivity, if we look at the way that organisations might look at these things now, and we look at the Equality Act, then you can't have one person who knows all the answers about that. Often what happens are people like us who say, well, we've been there, we know what it's like. We can actually have a very good positive impact in terms of giving feedback about what things could be done to change that and at least open up people's ideas and thoughts. So inclusive growth for me, very simply put is don't exclude anyone. Just look at what it is you're trying to do. Open the doors, give everyone the opportunity, and don't just try and put people into certain boxes where you think they will fit. Just let them have their say and listen to them with open ears and a welcome smile.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. I love that. And what you're saying there reminds me of a friend of mine who was really involved in the disability rights movement in the '90s said that, their phrase was, nothing about us without us, which basically means that if you are designing a policy or a process that you have to involve the people that are affected by that policy or the process. Don't make assumptions about what people can and can't do or what they like or what they don't like.

Michael O'Reilly: That's very true. I think if we look at people sort of, that have been involved in different movements of different sorts for disability or if we just say the Equalities Act I remember I did a radio interview on Radio Times with Ayesha Hazarika, who's now a dame in the House of Lords, a labour person. And effectively when I was talking to her about what I do and the Equality Act what I didn't realise at the time was when she was a labour advisor, she was part of the group, the Equality Act together in terms of the 2010 Quality Act. And in terms of how they were going to try and make this policy and what content was included. And it was... I can't really say this on air 'cause it would take too long, but her feedback in terms of the pushback they were getting, was actually quite appalling. So I think one of the other things, which again is another conversation is governments, it doesn't matter who is our governing body, really need to listen a lot more closely and stop decrying people that are trying to come up with ways of helping and assisting what needs to be done as against making policy based on what they think is going to suit them and their party.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. Now before you go, if the person listening to us right now would like to explore age diversity in their workforce, perhaps they want to improve the way that they attract and recruit and retain older workers in their organisation, how can they get in touch with you and learn more about the work that you do?

Michael O'Reilly: Okay, so either they can go onto the website, which is agediversitynetwork.com and there is a contact form there that will come straight through to us. So you can contact us that way. Also it's a good way of finding out what we do as an organisation or they can email me direct, which is literally it's mike@agediversitynetwork.com. And equally so for individuals, if they're looking for help or advice in any form, then they can contact us exactly the same way. I would like to just quickly say that we did a survey just under two years ago or just over 18 months and we're doing a second one. We're doing them by yearly, which is around over 50s and the struggles that they get looking for work, whether they're working now or even in work looking to move. And that study, we are going to be hopefully publishing at the end of Q1, beginning Q2 to 2025. So whoever's listening to this, if it's before that date, then please do contact us. We've got lots of questions we want to ask people and get the survey right to see if it's changed from nearly two years ago. If you are listening after the survey's been published in 2025, then go on to the website 'cause the results will be there and you can just read them.

Toby Mildon: Excellent. Well, Mike, thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's been really fascinating to catch up with you. You and I first met, we were on a panel event together, weren't we at a...

Michael O'Reilly: Yes.

Toby Mildon: A conference for financial people talking about diversity and inclusion and so it's been really great to catch up with you. Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge and wisdom with us, which I hope is really useful to the person listening to us right now and perhaps giving them some inspiration and things that they can implement in their own organisation.

Michael O'Reilly: Yeah. Well thank, thank you for inviting me. It's been a pleasure to take part and obviously anything to do with inclusion. You do a great job, Toby, and thanks for having me on your show.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Thank you very much. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast with myself and Mike today, who is my guest. Hopefully you've taken away some new knowledge, some new inspiration or things that you can start applying within your own organisation to attract and recruit and retain older workforces and really benefit from the diversity of ages across the whole spectrum. I look seeing you on the next episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast, which will be out very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself. Bye.

Speaker 1: Thank you. Listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.