Inclusive Growth Show
Inclusive Growth Show
Mindful Messaging: A call for inclusive communication
Unlock the transformative power of inclusive communication with our special guest, Ettie Bailey-King, an expert in inclusive and accessible communications. Join us as we explore how harmful practices in communication can perpetuate discrimination and how you can counteract this with specificity, accuracy, and respect. Ettie shares practical examples and key principles that underline the importance of mindful communication within organisations and with external stakeholders. Understand how words shape actions, perceptions, and behaviours, and learn to foster an inclusive environment through thoughtful language choices.
Ever wondered how a simple change in wording can alter your memory of an event? Discover intriguing research on language's profound impact on our judgments and societal biases. Ettie and I discuss the importance of mindfulness in word choice, particularly when it comes to marginalised groups, and the inevitable mistakes we all make in communication. From public speaking tips to insights on gendered language, we delve into the art of using language to reflect true values and encourage self-compassion and corrective actions when errors occur.
Expand your understanding of accessibility with a nuanced perspective that goes beyond specific conditions. Toby shares his experiences from the BBC, introducing the concept of permanent, temporary, and situational disabilities. We discuss practical strategies for creating inclusive communications, such as using simple language and making content available in multiple formats. Learn how to integrate these practices into your daily work and challenge narrow definitions of professionalism. For more insights, be sure to follow Ettie on LinkedIn and subscribe to her newsletter. Join us as we champion inclusive growth through better communication.
If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Speaker 2:Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Eti Bailey-King, and with Eti, I will be diving into inclusive and accessible communications, which is really important if you are a communicator internally with your employees, as well as if you are communicating externally with external stakeholders, like your customers or suppliers or partners. So, etty, it's lovely to see you. Thanks for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Hi Toby, Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 2:So, before we get into the kind of the main questions, could you just start by telling us a bit about yourself, your background and the work that you do as an inclusive and accessible communications educator?
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah. So I'll start by talking about that job title inclusive and accessible communication educator. It's a bit of an unusual one. I haven't come across another one yet.
Speaker 3:I basically help anyone who writes emails, puts together written reports, makes presentations, creates social media content basically anyone who communicates ever which I guess is all of us to make that their communications and their content as inclusive and accessible as possible, and we'll get into what each of those words mean. I know we're going to explore that more sort of in the coming minutes. But as to how I got into it, so my background was that I always worked in the charity sector in communications and content roles, and I basically came to working for myself in this way out of frustration with the way that mainstream communications practices were often really harmful. They could be very unethical. I saw them creating a lot of like ableism, racism, sexism and more, and I just felt so frustrated with that seemingly mainstream comms practice that I knew I wanted to set up and do things differently and help people who really want to be as inclusive and accessible and equitable as possible to do that.
Speaker 2:So what are some of the key principles behind inclusive communications and how do we approach topics like age, gender, disability, race and sexual orientation in a respectful way?
Speaker 3:I think one of the key principles behind being an inclusive communicator is recognizing that the way that we communicate can do harm. Some experiences of ableism, ageism, racism and lots of other isms do happen through communication. They can happen through somebody misgendering you in conversation, using the wrong pronouns for you, maybe sort of commenting on your appearance in a gendered way, maybe like expressing ableist stereotypes, and so just as it's possible for that harm to happen in our communication, it's also possible to avoid that harm but actually to kind of repair and restore and to express what our values are. So if we are all about inclusion and equity, we can sort of follow this principle of being what I sometimes call anti-oppressive, which is basically not just not being racist, not just not being sexist, not being ableist and so on. It's about challenging all of that in how we communicate, and that often comes down to a sort of a collection of different principles. So one of them might be that we therefore need to be specific in how we communicate, because big, sweeping generalizations about different groups of people can have a harmful impact. Right, if we group people into massive umbrella terms, we are mixing together people with lots of different needs, wants and perspectives, so we need to watch out for using big umbrella terms like all people of the global majority, which is a term for people of color or racially minoritized people, or saying all LGBTQIA plus people, if we're actually talking about a more specific group.
Speaker 3:There's other principles like just being accurate.
Speaker 3:So watch out for any kind of hidden assumptions in what we're saying. I've got an education client at the moment and they found it really interesting that they were talking for a long time about the attainment gap between students of different races and when they looked into it more and they found that there was a lot of systemic racism and how these students work was being evaluated, they realized it's not an attainment gap, it's an awarding gap. So it's kind of these like moments where we can get more accurate and more specific about what we're really saying, can get more accurate and more specific about what we're really saying. And there's other principles that I'm sure we're all using already, which is just stuff like ask people. Ask people how they talk about themselves.
Speaker 3:You know most disabled people in the UK. We use identity first language. We say I am disabled. Lots of folks in other countries, but also some people in the UK say that they are a person with disabilities, like find that out, mirror people's language and just be respectful in the sense that you are using the terms that people want you to use about them. So there's lots more other principles like that, but I think it comes down to quite simple, quite intuitive things like being specific, accurate, respectful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, brilliant. I love what you're saying Because, as I'm a disabled person myself and I often hear sweeping statements like the disabled community, for example, referring to the millions of people living in the UK with a disability or long-term health condition because I run a workshop called Everything you Want to Know About Disability, but we're Too Afraid to Ask and I know it's a bit of a mouthful. But one of the things that I talk about there is about personal preference, about whether somebody uses disability-first language or person-first language, and it does vary around the world. I know in the UK there tends to be a preference for disability-first language as per the social model in terms of kind of individuals are disabled by barriers that are created by society. So, no, it's really cool. So I mean, I suppose, building on that, how do you think that the words that we choose in our communications impact people's actions, perceptions and behaviours, and are there some practical examples from your work that you can think about?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, definitely. So there's a whole host of research on this, so we'll chat briefly about some of the research, which mainly comes out of cognitive linguistics, psychology and also kind of out of like management, but lots of different fields are looking into this and some of the studies that I often teach people about when I'm sort of taking them through the background of why language matters. So, for example, when I'm teaching my course, I've got a 12 week course in inclusive and accessible communication and we start off with, like you know, why are we actually bothering to do this? It's not just because, like, it's nice and kind and respectful, right, it comes back to deep, foundational issues about justice, and the reason for me that it comes back to justice is because language actually shapes how people behave. So research by Lira Boroditsky at Stanford University has found amazing different reactions from people depending on very small tweaks in the words that they're presented with.
Speaker 3:So one of her studies has two groups of people very similar folks university students and in one group they're presented with a case study of how crime is spreading through somebody through their local area in the city, and it uses this metaphor of calling crime a beast, and that's one of the only changes in the text is compared to a beast and crime is a beast that is stalking the city. In the other group it's pretty much the exact same story, but crime is compared to a virus and in the virus example, instead of saying stalking the city, it's something like spreading through the city. And that tiny difference in language has drastically different effects on the types of policies that those people then say they support. The group that had crime being compared to a beast tend to support really sort of so-called tough on crime solutions. They see it as like well you know, people who commit crimes are bad people, they are praying, they are choosing to do this and they are vicious. And then people in the group where crime was being described as a virus tend to support much more compassionate sort of public health style approaches, thinking crime happens due to, like a variety of complex factors. It has starting points. We know that we can sort of address it in that way, and what's amazing about that study is that those people don't recall the difference between the two examples.
Speaker 3:There's loads of other studies I could mention. Some of you will know the ones which are all to do with perception. So whether people recall, you show them a video basically of, for example, some cars traveling at a certain speed. If you then ask them how fast were the cars traveling when they smashed into each other, people answer way, way higher speeds. If you say how fast were the cars traveling when they contacted each other, they're giving these answers of much lower speeds. And there's, yeah, loads of other ones.
Speaker 3:I'll be careful not to go too much into the research, but I think what it tells us is that seemingly small changes can shift our actions, our perceptions of reality and our behaviours, and we don't typically notice it in all of those studies. When the researchers then afterwards say, like, do you remember how crime was compared? Can you remember if there was a specific word or metaphor that was used there? Pretty much no one can remember it because you know we don't pay attention to the precise words that are being used towards us that often. But we do really feel the impact and I think we see that at scale in terms of like.
Speaker 3:How are people being talked about disabled people, racially minoritized people, people that are any sexual orientation other than heterosexual, while there's all these social scripts that kind of pile up taboo and stigma and inaccurate beliefs about us and we need to develop this skill of paying attention to each of those little words and phrases and then shifting them so they're more specific, more accurate and respectful. And I do just want to say I know it might be sounding like I'm sort of saying you've got to panic about every single word you use and you must like never speak freely and spontaneously. I also don't think this has to be tricky at all. I don't think we have to second guess ourselves a lot. I think it's just about building up that skill of noticing and consciously choosing our words, but not in a way where we're sort of like constantly editing ourselves every second, just trying to practice being a bit more thoughtful.
Speaker 2:I really like what you're saying about that kind of mindfulness because it reminds me of a couple of things. So when I've done public speaking training, I've been taught that often as a public speaker, people remember how you made them feel rather than what you said, which is one point. And then the other thing I was thinking about is I interviewed somebody on this podcast a while ago about bias within language. She was talking about some research where in Europe there's kind of gendered language so in Spain, for example, a bridge may be feminine, in Germany a bridge may be masculine and she was saying that often that influences how people then describe the object. So in Spain they might say it's elegant, it's beautiful, and in Germany they might say it's robust, it's strong. And it's interesting how that language really can have that influence over our perceptions of something and how we might then describe it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love that example and that study was also done by Lira Boroditsky, the Stanford researcher that I mentioned earlier. It's amazing and she's got a wonderful TED Talk. If anyone wants to listen to or watch it I think it's called the Power of Words, but I might need to check myself on that I'm sure we can share the link as a follow-up.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, when we communicate, we're bound to make mistakes. Either on an individual level, we might be having a conversation with a team member and we make a mistake, or if you are a comms person for a company and you're communicating internally to your employees or externally to your customers, we're bound to make mistakes. So if that happens, what is the best way to acknowledge and correct them and how do we handle apologies?
Speaker 3:So totally agree. Mistakes are so normal and so common, and I think it's really important that we just really have self compassion and compassion for others. We all say things that we don't mean. I'm going to say lots of things right now that aren't exactly what I meant to say, and that's because, as humans, we respond in the moment, we speak emotively, or we might just literally say the wrong word, one that we didn't mean, and so it doesn't mean that we are bad if we slip up.
Speaker 3:And there's also just this sense, similar to what you were talking about there with like the research about how bias is encoded very deeply in our language. We've learned a lot of like biased concepts from our earliest ages and from a very, very, very young age. When you're listening to language, you're picking up on different patterns, and that can run really deep. So one that I notice all the time is people often white people will describe someone like one person, as diverse. They'll say, like we've got a new hire and her name is Laura. She's diverse, and that pattern reflects a sort of deep white-centric bias in language, because one individual can never be diverse. Diverse describes difference across a group. When Laura joins the team, if she's a black woman, and there weren't any black women in the team before now. It's more diverse. When we say an individual is diverse, we're kind of measuring them against like an imagined standard, as though, like a white person or a man is neutral. So that's one sort of example of like these things are buried really, really deep in our language and so it just wouldn't mean anything bad about you if you sort of carry this bias with you. I think it's normal and human to have that bias. A lot of it evolved, you know, like the reason humans are alive is because our ancestors were quick at making snap judgments and forming sort of biased conclusions about the world, and that's how we survived. So holding the bias or saying something you don't mean, I would say not really a big deal. The really important thing is what do you do when you notice it? And that's where we have the opportunity to really express what our true values are. And so I guess I would say that in the moment when you make a mistake, I think there's a tension. I sort of see it almost as a paradox, which is like treat it both as not a big deal and really important. I would say it's not a big deal in the sense that it's like, okay, just swiftly notice that it's happened and then take action.
Speaker 3:I typically will acknowledge, apologize and act. So acknowledge might be saying like marking that you noticed that you said something that wasn't quite right, like, oops, just said that. Apologize A lot of the time that will be saying sorry. Sometimes it might not be appropriate to do in public. Other times, you know, you actually might distress the person If you call the conversation back to what just happened. It might be more respectful to maybe speak with them one-on-one afterwards. So it depends a bit on the context. But apologize, so I might say oops, sorry, I didn't mean what I said there, I'm sorry. And then by act I just mean like move on, just carry on as you, as you are, and say what you were going to say.
Speaker 3:Obviously, if it's a really big slip up, then you might need to make amends in a more meaningful way than just marking it, apologizing and moving on. Sometimes you'll need to repair that relationship privately or again, possibly publicly. But I think the key idea for me is like know that it's not that big a deal, it's kind of light and it doesn't have to be like the end of everything. It doesn't have to make you think you're a really bad person, but it simultaneously is a big deal, because if we, for example, say the wrong pronouns for somebody or we forget somebody's name, that can be incredibly harmful. So it is really important that we fix the mistake. But I think it's important that we don't like overload it with symbolism and think that it means that we're awful, terrible people. Right, everyone's making mistakes.
Speaker 3:And there's a linguist called Lau Zimmern, who I absolutely love, who writes really really well particularly about pronouns and gender in language. And Lauimmon says that pronouns are a lot like names. So there's a few different ways in which that's true. Like there are more than two names, just like there are more than two pronouns. You can't guess someone's name from looking at them, just as you can't guess someone's pronouns from looking at them. You can guess someone's name if you want to, but you'll probably be wrong. You can guess someone's pronouns if you want to, but you'll probably be wrong. You can guess someone's pronouns, but you may well be wrong. And what Lal says is, just as getting someone's name wrong is not the end of the world so long as it's handled well, the same with getting someone's pronouns wrong and I would just extend that to any mistake, right. If it's handled sort of with a bit of grace and with some kindness and you just acknowledge, apologize and act, yeah, it doesn't really have to be a big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what you're saying about pronouns is really important, and there's a recent podcast interview that I did with somebody called Pronouns Save Lives. We talk about the importance of pronouns and respecting pronouns that people use, etc. So that's an episode worth digging out and listening to. Can we just switch gears a little bit, because I think we've talked quite a lot about making communications inclusive. I just want to kind of go a bit further on the accessibility side of things. So how can we make sure that communications are accessible for everybody, regardless of their experience?
Speaker 3:And maybe you could clarify the difference between accessibility and inclusivity, because you know the person listening to us today might think it's the same thing and well, actually, the way that a lot of people define accessibility is that accessibility means ensuring that disabled people can experience something as easily as not yet disabled people. So, for example, a website or an app. That's not the definition that I work with, although it is a very common one. I work with the definition that accessibility just means that people get what they need. That's not intended to erase disabled people by any means. It's more intended to say that, actually, if we focus purely on the idea that accessibility means making sure your website works better for blind people and deaf people or making sure that your mobile app is accessible for people who have some kind of motor condition, I find it can narrow our focus a little bit and that when we focus more on making sure that people get what they need, I think we can have that more sort of nuanced perspective which recognizes that as disabled people, we almost always have multiple conditions and as neurodivergent people most neurodivergent people are multiply neurodivergent. And then there's loads and loads of us like me who only realize that a lot of my conditions constitute a disability is really relatively late in life, or people who have intermittent health conditions or sort of conditions related to energy or pain levels which fluctuate all the time. And so when we're making something accessible, I would say we're making it work for people as they really are.
Speaker 3:I don't know about you, but when I'm writing like a really long and detailed email or like a newsletter, when I'm sending my weekly newsletter, I'm going to compose that on my laptop, I'm going to be sat there very focused, no other distractions, and I'm looking at it on a big screen and I'm writing in my ideal writing situation and it's very tempting for me to think that my reader is engaging with it in their ideal situation. They're well-rested, they're relaxed, they haven't just had an argument with anybody, they've recently had a meal, life is good and they're looking at it on a big screen screen when they read it. But the reality is that people are like on the run. They're reading emails sort of on their phone and they're only getting through it maybe for 30 seconds before the baby cries, and then they'll come back to it later if they remember it, and they are stressed and they are worried.
Speaker 3:So I guess I take this sort of broader perspective on accessibility and say that it's really about thinking how you make content work for everybody where they are, whether they are blind, deaf, dyspraxic, autistic. You know all of disability and neurodivergence are so, so important, but there is also kind of a broader perspective around meeting people where they are in the real world, and the good news is that actually the principles of how you make stuff accessible for people are remarkably similar, whether you're trying to make things work better for blind and deaf people or you know that tired, distracted person who's on the run and needs to remember to pick up ingredients for dinner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, when I worked in usability and accessibility at the BBC, one of my key learning points was thinking about how we are disabled or impaired at different levels. So I always assumed that accessibility was for people like me, born with a disability and using assistive technology, like I use speech-to-text software on my laptop, for example, to write documents and emails. But actually there's kind of other levels, because there's people who are temporarily impaired, like going on a holiday and breaking your leg, or situationally impaired, so it could be holding a baby in one arm whilst trying to cook at the same time, or out on the beach with the sun glaring on your device and therefore you find it difficult to read the text on your device. So when I thought about accessibility at those three levels kind of permanent disability, temporary disability and situational disability that was quite an eye-opener for me. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love those examples you've shared. That really, really resonates with me and that's something I explore in one of my newsletters, which is, yeah, a deep dive into exactly that the difference between temporary, situational and permanent impairment. And, as a disabled person, I normally kind of hate the word impairment because I feel like it brings negativity and stigma. But, exactly like you, when I found out about how, like, when we combine that with the social model of disability and say, like disability is like, all the challenges of disability are produced by these mismatches, so that in a very real sense, disability is actually not the condition of having a sort of sensory or physical or cognitive difference, it's actually that mismatch between that trait that we have and the environment we find ourselves in. And it's so. It can be so liberating when you realize that, because I found it really helpful and hopeful and I think, like, actually none of these traits necessarily have to be disabling. Disability is real and will be with us forever and for most of us is lifelong, although, of course, actually 80% of it is acquired in adult life, between 18 and 65, which a lot of people forget. They think it's, you know, always from birth. So I think that, whilst disability, you know, mustn't be erased. We mustn't act as though it's, you know, oh, it's only about having the right sort of you know, if you've got captions on your video, everything's fine and all the problems go away. Or like, oh, so long as there's, you know, the venue is wheelchair accessible, then everything's perfectly accessible and we can just stop worrying about disability. So I want to caution against that kind of simplistic thinking which does occasionally come up. But yeah, I really love those examples that you've shared there. And when we think about the fact that there is this spectrum of ways in which people can be inconvenienced or harmed or disabled by experiences like you mentioned, people can sort of be impaired by, like, tiredness, or maybe it's the evening and they're having a glass of wine, or, yeah, they're trying to cook while also holding a baby.
Speaker 3:It comes down to these really quite simple practices. So it's things like short words, short sentences, short paragraphs, having options. Right, you've got a piece of written content. Can you also record a voiceover for it, or can you just make sure that the way it's written and formatted will work really well with any of the sort of software like assistive technology or browser extensions which read that content out. So if you've actually formatted your subheadings properly using H2 and H3, those are going to get read out properly as subheadings. Sometimes people just increase the text size, which is really unhelpful if you're navigating with a screen reader and you're trying to sort of like jump to the next section. So it's really just about kind of slowing down and doing all the standard stuff in the right order. Format your webpage in that normal, consistent way with your headings.
Speaker 3:Like I said, short words, short sentences, short paragraphs. It probably sounds a bit silly because it's like oh, that sounds so basic. How could that be that helpful? But short words, short paragraphs and short sentences can be transformative. You know, whether we are experiencing chronic pain or whether we're finding that you know menopause symptoms or a whole range of other things are interfering with our focus, that can be brilliantly helpful. And also simple stuff like using bullet points. They're incredibly helpful for sighted people just to make it easier to digest that information, and I've got a ton of free resources on this which people can find on my website or if they sign up for my newsletter, which is fightingtalksubstackcom, you can explore lots of those sort of tools and recommendations.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. And the thing is, providing communications in other formats is only going to help you get your message across, because there are some people who just have a visual preference, some people have an auditory preference. So if you take a piece of content, a written content, and then you turn that into an audio format and a video format, it's only going to help you get your message across. And I know in marketing we talk about if you're trying to communicate with a customer. It's something like I think it's the five seven rule or something like that. You have to basically talk to somebody seven times through five different mediums in order to just get your message across.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I love what you say there about why would we not want to? Why would we not just want to be more effective and more tailored? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So you mentioned keeping things simple. What are some of the other general principles for creating inclusive communications? Have you got any really cool tips that you can share with us?
Speaker 3:building web pages, just watching out for the tendency, you know, some of us like to sort of experiment with, like, really dramatic animations or incredibly sort of varied color combinations which might look so, so, so gorgeous if you're sighted but could be really challenging for people who are vision impaired. That animation could be really difficult for autistic people or it could be like epilepsy triggering. So sometimes I think it's about pulling back from the urge to overcomplicate and of course, things can still look beautiful. You can still have video on your website, but just making sure you're doing kind of all the basics right Checking that color contrast, making sure that whatever you create can be easily resized. So watch out for PDFs.
Speaker 3:I'm on a mission to get rid of PDFs because they are basically always inaccessible in my experience. Yes, you can have a very well tagged PDF which is more accessible, but there's just a whole host of reasons to do with things like how difficult they are to resize, which make them really inaccessible. So just keep things simple If you can work with Google Docs or plain text documents or just like web versions of that information and then make it available in other ways if you can. So having a captioned or subtitled video is a lovely complement to that.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. Now a question that I ask everybody when they come on this podcast is what does inclusive growth mean to you and maybe how you can link that to inclusive and accessible communications?
Speaker 3:To me, inclusive growth means recognising that we can all get so much more out of our lives and out of our sort of professional performances and our you know, our personal enjoyment when we're able to sort of break out of that very narrow script of what it looks like to be a certain way.
Speaker 3:So at work I often see this really narrow script of professionalism which basically looks like being a not yet disabled heterosexual man in terms of you know, you show up, you're always like full of energy and you're well and you look polished and groomed and you don't bring in any quote, unquote political topics to work, like experiencing racism, very interesting, whose lives get considered political, and that, for so many years, was really my script of what it was to be professional or valuable or kind of like, yeah, a proper grown-up person.
Speaker 3:And inclusive growth to me means recognizing that that one script just doesn't exist and it doesn't benefit us and there are so many more varied ways of being a person and that professional can look like millions of different things and accessible and inclusive communication can look like millions of different things. And accessible and inclusive communication can look like millions of different ways of communicating. It's more responsive to the individual, it's not just, you know, to take that example of writing that very long, detailed sort of wordy email which we're imagining is going to be read by somebody sat at a desktop computer with a big screen, with lots of time and energy and focus, it's recognising that that's not how most of us live our lives and we bring all kinds of identities and differences and disabilities and so on, and so accessible and inclusive communication is just, yeah, kind of expanding that idea of what's normal so that we can all have more authentic and meaningful communication.
Speaker 2:Brilliant Now. If the person listening to us right now wants to follow your work, or they want to learn more about accessible and inclusive communications, what should they do?
Speaker 3:Sign up for my newsletter. It's wwwfightingtalksubstackcom. So that's wwwfightingtalksubstackcom, and you can connect with me on LinkedIn I'm Etty Bailey King there or on Instagram. I'm Etty Bailey King on Instagram as well. And yeah, just sign up to the newsletter and you'll get weekly practical updates full of tips and tools and tricks and things that you can apply in everyday life, so you can be more accessible and inclusive.
Speaker 2:Brilliant Well, etty. Thank you ever so much for joining me today on this episode. It's been really fascinating to catch up with you and talk about how we can communicate more inclusively and more accessibly as well. So thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure.
Speaker 2:You're welcome and thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast with myself and Eti. We've covered a lot of ground today. We've talked about what inclusive communications is and the importance of language, and how we communicate and what we do when we make a mistake and how we apologise, and how we make sure our communications are accessible and the principles behind that. So there's lots to take away and hopefully you can apply what we've discussed today to your own work. If there's any way that my team and I can help you, then please do reach out to us through our website, mildencouk, and, as Etty says, if you want to follow up with her and talk about inclusive and accessible communications, the best way of doing that is to connect with her on LinkedIn and also subscribe to her newsletter. So until the next time, I look very much forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast, which will be coming out very soon. Take care.
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