Inclusive Growth Show
Inclusive Growth Show
Beyond Assumptions: The Power of Asking the Right Questions in Healthcare
How does bias shape the healthcare experience for marginalised communities? Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Ellen Edenbrough, co-founder of Inclusive Health, as we uncover the pressing need for equality in healthcare. Ellen’s diverse journey through various sectors of inclusion and diversity sets the stage for an eye-opening discussion on the unique challenges faced by patients and healthcare professionals alike. Through personal stories, including those of their wife, a junior doctor living with cluster headaches, Ellen reveals the often-overlooked assumptions in medical settings and how Inclusive Health is making strides with practical, relatable training to foster inclusivity.
We don’t shy away from the tough questions. What does it really mean to navigate the healthcare system as a non-binary individual or a member of the LGBTQ+ community? Ellen sheds light on the daily fears and biases that these patients encounter, from the lack of legal recognition to the dangerous consequences of medical assumptions. We also delve into the misconceptions surrounding physical disabilities, emphasising the critical need for a holistic approach to healthcare. The conversation introduces the unique training modules developed by Inclusive Health, leveraging personal lived experiences to improve the medical field's understanding and approach to comprehensive care.
Finally, we tackle the systemic issues plaguing the NHS, including the stark regional inconsistencies in patient care. Ellen illustrates these points with compelling examples, such as the struggles of a trans individual trying to receive hormone therapy after relocating. The narrative contrasts the dignified care in hospices with the often clinical environments of hospitals, highlighting how these settings impact patient well-being. The episode concludes with a powerful discussion on the financial and psychological costs of discrimination within the NHS, and the urgent need for creating psychologically safe environments for healthcare professionals. Tune in to understand how fostering inclusivity is not just a moral imperative but also a practical necessity for saving lives and reducing healthcare costs.
If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website.
If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.
Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Speaker 2:Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I am Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Ellen Edenbrough and we are going to be talking about equality within the healthcare profession. So it's going to be a really interesting conversation, because I myself have worked in healthcare technology. So before I got into a diversity and inclusion career, I worked in IT. I worked for an American healthcare technology company implementing software into hospitals, so I've had a lot of sort of professional interaction with the healthcare profession. But I've also have my own personal lived experience of working with healthcare professionals. So, being born with a rare neuromuscular disability, I've interacted with lots of doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals and have had my own experiences along the way.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be really interesting to have a conversation today with Ellen about equality within healthcare. So, ellen, thanks ever so much for joining us today. It's lovely to see you. Yeah, thanks for having us. So can we just dive straight into the first question if you don't mind, and can you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and more about Inclusive Health?
Speaker 3:Yes, so Inclusive Health is my new baby because we only launched on the 31st of January, so we're very new compared to the likes of yourselves and your organisation, fresh on the market per se. But I've been doing inclusion diversity work for eight, nine years now. I need to work out the exact amount. And I was saying to you a little bit earlier I started doing inclusion work when it didn't really exist as a career. There were a handful of jobs. I remember even trying to apply for a role up in Leeds pre-COVID, and there was two jobs in the whole of Yorkshire for me to apply to. And now there's a wealth of them, right? Maybe budgets have changed this year, but there's far more than there used to be. So I feel quite fortunate that I've landed in this career on the early days of its development. So I've done a variety of in-house inclusion roles every sector charity, public, private. Then I became a consultant within another company and spoke to different charities, global tech, recruitment firms, you name it. It really varied globally, all around the world.
Speaker 3:I noticed that there were some gaps in my journey in terms of giving specific sectors R&D training to their world, and one of those was medicine and health and healthcare professionals. Because I stupidly married a doctor. We started dating just before she graduated and I thought that's it, quids in, I can stay at home, put my feet up. Very different story for junior doctors. I was fooled into it. But you can imagine the things I've heard, right, you've mentioned already a little bit as your patient experience. So when you're married to someone who's unbelievably passionate about people and holistic healthcare not only with the struggles of time and funding and, of course, those natural barriers you hear some absolute horror stories of not only exclusionary thing that gets says in the staff room which in the medical world is known as the mess, which says a lot, doesn't it but also patient bedside interactions, of whole assumptions about people excluding them in a really vulnerable position. Right, health's really vulnerable. You're putting your health and your life in someone's hands, aren't you? And hoping they're going to do a good job with it and, as a result, you can feel out your depth of saying, of correcting them and asking them certain questions.
Speaker 3:So we thought let's see if we can create inclusion and diversity, training bespoke for healthcare professionals. So that's when Anna, the other half of inclusive health comes in understanding the profession, understanding the barriers, understanding the jargon and the acronyms which are over my head in every role, right? Pediatrics, surgery, respiratory, palliative care. That's where she currently is in a hospice right now. She's been dragged in, so all those different areas and all those different interactions that happen, but, of course, the NHS is the biggest employer in the country, so there's lots of staff behind the scenes that are not healthcare professionals.
Speaker 3:You're one of them, right? Yes, you weren't the NHS, but you were in the healthcare setting and giving them bespoke training that they can think okay, here's this theory, here's this thinking, here's this model. How do I actually translate it? In my job, though, and we hope that, with both of our brains and experience together, we can give them real tangible learning that they think ah, I can relate that tomorrow, I can relate that in a week in the surgery room, I can relate that into that space and setting, or that bedside conversation with that family, and include them and to remove that vulnerability. So that's our aim, six months into inclusive health so far.
Speaker 2:That's really cool. So I don't want to kind of jump to conclusions or make any assumptions, because you've had a background in EDI for a while now and you've just established a new business in healthcare inclusion. Like I said, I don't want to kind of jump to any conclusions or assumptions about why, but can you just elaborate on why you're specialising in inclusion within healthcare?
Speaker 3:I guess there's a few reasons. There's personal experience. I've realised recently, becoming self-employed as well as doing inclusive health, I've realised we only have two things in life. One is time and one is health. And health can be a lottery right and again there's that vulnerability to it. Anna and I are also patients.
Speaker 3:Anna has some invisible disabilities. She has a thing called cluster headaches. Cluster headaches are very rarely known. Unfortunately. They are nicknamed suicide headaches because of the pain that comes with them and unfortunately, those that have that experience often do take that path because of the agonizing pain. There's so little research in it and what's fascinating is that she can have this debilitating pain which the NHS has announced that they say it is the most painful condition to experience, but it's so rarely known about and it's interesting of which demographic is very common in white men, middle-aged men and smokers, but Anna's the very opposite of all those experiences and even healthcare professionals aren't sympathetic and understanding to Anna. So if you're not even going to get that in that world, what chance have we got when we can't advocate for ourselves in the same way? I've also seen a really interesting intake and I'm sorry if I'm going off piste here, but I feel such a level of comfort now being a non-binary person, having Anna by my side, not only for me, also for my family, because we are taken more seriously now in healthcare settings.
Speaker 3:At the start of the year I lost my auntie who had a learning disability from a young age and you probably know this because of your experience in inclusion diversity and you probably know some of these stats. But people with a learning disability die 20 years younger than the average population. She died in her 60s. She's going through an inquest. She absolutely died because of ableism. She'd gone to maybe six hospitals in two weeks. The paramedics didn't want to take her. Even her oxygen levels were 60%, which is dangerously low.
Speaker 3:We arrived at the hospital I think it was around Boxing Day. She was screaming in pain. It was 2pm. She still hadn't been seen. Anna had to sweep in and had to say and Anna hates putting the medical hat on to be taken seriously but we had to.
Speaker 3:It was a really traumatising experience and I don't know what would have happened if it wasn't for Anna. She basically had to manage as a family member, her as a patient, because the doctors were just not believing in her. She was grunting she never grunts, but they assumed, because of her learning disability, that's who she was and how she was. They didn't pick up the phone and ring family or the care home, who've known her for 40 years, and say how is Gail? Can Gail ask for lunch? Can Gail feed herself? She can feed herself. She couldn't there and then and they just assumed that's how she was and what she was because she couldn't advocate for herself. It was complete ableism that she lost her life the way she did. We were very fortunate that with Anna, we got her the right and she died with dignity and peace. But I really think, gosh, if it wasn't for her, I don't know where we'd be.
Speaker 3:And there was no extra medicalness that was needed. There was no additional training in terms of the medicalization of the experiences my auntie was having. There just needed to be some humanity and empathy and care and consideration and a few questions. And again, I'm really sorry I've gone off piece with this question, but so often with what we're finding so far with inclusive health is it's just getting people to ask the right question with empathy, with care and not assuming, because so often people are missing whole things about people because they quote, unquote, don't ask, but then they're missing whole things about people because they quote, unquote, don't ask, but then they're missing whole chunks of their identity and something that could be really important to their health because they make whole assumptions and, as a non-binary person, I'm scared to go to the doctors. I'm married to a doctor who's a trainee GP and I'm scared to go to my own GP. I am training my GP soon but you know and I'm someone with knowledge, I am, my only language is English, I'm born and bred English and I'm scared to go to the doctors. So I can't begin to imagine. You have those intersectional identities of vulnerability and language and so many different other things that you know 57% of trans people avoid going to the doctor when they're unwell. Mental health referrals white patients are far more likely to be referred to talking therapies than people of color. You know 30% of trans people don't go for perinatal care during pregnancy because of fear and worry we're putting lives at risk.
Speaker 3:I've always said this with inclusion when I've worked in the finance sector, university sector, charity sector. I've always said this with inclusion when I've worked in the finance sector, university sector, charity sector. I've always said in my job interviews if I can help one colleague internally feel welcome, feel included, feel like they are appreciated, then I've done my job. What we say with inclusive health is if we upskill one medical professional that has a really important inclusive conversation with the patient, then that patient feels a lump and a bump or unwell. Then they think, oh, I can go back to them, that could save a life. But if they feel excluded or looked over and then they don't go for that appointment, who knows what's going to happen yeah, it's really powerful stuff and if you don't mind, everything.
Speaker 3:I have to come out every day. Right, there are certain identities which are visual, and boundaries and challenges come with that For those. Obviously, you can't hear me, so you can hear me. You can't see me. I am very stereotypically queer appearing. I'm very aware of that, but there'll still be assumptions that I'm a masculine woman and I'm not non-binary. So I have to out myself all day, every day, with conversations, with situations. I don't know if it's comfortable or if I'm safe to say I've got a wife, all of those things, but doctors don't know what non-binary is.
Speaker 3:You know I had top surgery. So for those those listening I had surgery to move my breasts. Basically, I paid privately. I paid nine thousand pounds. I have a privilege to do that. It wasn't easy, it was very difficult, but I did it because it was going to be up to like eight to ten years for that to happen. On the nhs, my mental health was terrible. Ever since oct October, the 4th 2022, the day I had surgery my mental health has been nowhere near as low as it has been pre-surgery. And I specifically said that private hospital do not send a letter to my GP saying I'm having the surgery. I don't want them to know, because they won't understand it. I don't know what interactions I will have then in the future. I mean, you've probably you know, I believe you're LGBTQ plus from my research and you've probably had whole assumptions about and you've heard friends say whole assumptions of you know. Are you sexually active? Yes, could you be pregnant? Why is that?
Speaker 3:the second question why aren't you asking me who with?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm using. You know, and Anna's worked in sexual health and been a GP, so she's come across many, many things as you can imagine in the sexual health world. But whole assumptions of not asking people sexuality questions or not are then making whole assumptions about what they've physically done. Well, you're missing. You're missing whole parts of their health because they're too scared to ask, they're too embarrassed to ask. So my fear is I am going to get looked at in a different way.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to be taken as serious, especially if you you know a lot of people assume LGBTQ plus people if they're having issues with their mental health, it's because they're LGBTQ plus. Well, no, that can be part of it. But there's additional things to worries and fears and stress can be part of it. But there's additional things to worries and fears and stress. And it's a vulnerability of being in that room with someone who might look across the table to you and think that you're not real because our government are telling us that we don't exist. I'm legally not recognized. I can't die as non-binary. I couldn't get married as non-binary. I had to get married as a female. Well, well, that's not accurate. I always think, if I ever become famous and my relatives, the who do you think you are and the family tree records.
Speaker 3:They're not going to actually know me, unless they find my Instagram from way back when but you know and I, a lot of people don't think I should exist on this planet. So what if that doctor doesn't take me as serious? What if that doctor doesn't take me as serious? What if that doctor doesn't refer me as quickly because they don't think I deserve it? And that's the vulnerability that I'm putting myself in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, ness, it's really shocking, and a lot of what you're describing I kind of feel the same way sometimes. I mean, I don't. I've never felt like I wasn't able to come out to my GP or any healthcare professional about being a member of the LGBTQ plus community. I'm quite open about that and I came out quite late in life actually. So I came out when I was 29. It was actually after a near death experience where I was in a coma for a couple of months when I got pneumonia and to sit I mean to cut the a long story short the the shit hit the fan. But when I, you know, when I came out and I had this kind of like new euphoria with life which was short-lived, by the way, but part of that was I had to be more true to myself. I needed to stop hiding the fact that I'm a gay man.
Speaker 2:But I really like what you're saying about assumptions and presumptions, because that's been my experience as well in healthcare. Lots of healthcare professionals, for example, assume that because I have a physical disability, that I don't work, that I don't have a profession or run my own business, that I don't have a profession or run my own business. And also I like what you were saying about the holistic nature of our healthcare as well, because particularly now I reflect on my early years, particularly when I was growing up and I was seeing doctors all the time and I was having surgery and whatnot. I don't think I was ever asked about my sexual health or relationships health or even my mental health. Actually, all of the focus was on my physical health things like should I or should I not have spinal surgery and very little attention was played to mental health and wellbeing and things like that. So, yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I know that you so obviously you've created training that is specific for the medical profession. How have you actually gone about doing that?
Speaker 3:That's the blend of us being under this one roof and that's you know. We actually bought the website a year and a half before we set up the business because we just thought there's space here and we've got two quite unique brains with lived experience, with professional experience, and it'd be a waste to not utilize that. Understand, like some other inclusion areas don't have that because of Anna's medical experience, we understand the professional struggle of working 16 hour shifts and the pressures and the experiences they have and the spaces they're in and they're worse than the news ever tell you. By the way, the things that our junior doctors and medical professionals are seeing and experiencing, it's the acronyms, it's the jargon, it's the bureaucracy, it's having that nuance behind it all and, as I said, I think so often, there's all inclusion diversity, practitioners there's always the same sessions that we're used to running, right, no matter the big, massive businesses that do an idea, the little ones, there's always similar topics that we run, but we can always relate it back to their space and sometimes it lands in a way that we're bringing it into their world.
Speaker 3:And I think sometimes, when we surround ourselves with our own little bubbles and we usually have friends that, yes, they might not know everything about being an IND professional, but they have a real understanding to the world and different challenges and barriers and all those different things. And I think sometimes we forget some people. This stuff is brand new to them, right, and sometimes you probably even doubt yourself, right With, what do I know about this? Then you speak to people that know nothing about it. You're like, oh, I do know quite a lot, but sometimes we expect people to listen to this and then translate it into their job and their world, which they might not have the skills or knowledge to lift and shift it. We try and lift and shift it for them so they get it there and then, and straight away.
Speaker 3:And unfortunately, what sometimes does come with with there are challenges working in healthcare, because how do you get people off the wards when they're already understaffed, and all those struggles and challenges and barriers. And, as you, someone that maybe has worked in healthcare, it is a maze, you know, even having a doctor at home. I'm like, where? Where do I start? Who do I speak to? Because we've spoken to private health, we've spoken to charities, we've spoken to public health. Nhs England, individual trusts, each individual hospice, they're all doing things differently and that's what's a little bit scary, that all our, you know, every GP practice is its own business. One GP down the road can do it very differently to your GP. They all have different policies and different procedures.
Speaker 3:And I'd like to think we're Leeds-based, so we're starting locally. We're bringing that Northern charm to our training per se. We do travel further afield, but in terms of this healthcare space, because there's healthcare everywhere, even dentists right, and patients can get really different experiences, which can be. You know, I can imagine with your experiences you've probably been to a variety of different trusts, spoken to a variety of different healthcare professionals and there should be a consistency. So when you up and move location, move home, you should be able to then have the same interaction. And I know that's not the case. And folks just quickly on I know there's a trans individual on Instagram, bit of an influencer, but they've had every letter under the sun written about them getting the right hormones. They used to live in London. They've moved an hour out. Their GP is refusing to give them those hormones wow, okay their colleagues have said they should have it.
Speaker 2:They've been on that hormones for years and now one person's saying no, yeah, that's quite alarming and it's that one individual who's got that power and that influence, who's just suddenly put up that brick wall right, and you were saying, like holistic health and Anna, they're working in hospice at the moment, palliative care.
Speaker 3:They're taking some time out their training because they really love it, because it is, and I think sometimes I don't know if you know many medical professionals. I never knew any before, anna, right, and now I know too many medical professionals, but they love palliative care, end of life care, and you think, why would you like that? That is such a strange thing, right? I do know a surgeon as well and I still can't get my head around why they like doing that and chopping people up it's very bizarre.
Speaker 3:I'm glad some people do it right, but not for me, because it's holistic healthcare. It's giving people dignity and care and respect over their healthcare, and it's in such a I don't know if you've ever been to a hospice, but they're beautiful settings, they're calm, you can get your nails done, you can bring picnics in Llamas, come and see patients ponies. They can get married there and it's like they're a human.
Speaker 2:But that's how hospitals should be, because my partner works in inclusive design and we were having a conversation over dinner once about how hospitals are not designed to make you feel better.
Speaker 2:Right, if you think about disgusting colours, loud noises, horrible textures, awful lighting, very often, no really nice outdoor spaces or greenery, that kind of thing really.
Speaker 2:I mean I know they're clinical, but I mean in the sense they're really clinical awful environments and you're like, hang on a minute, hospital is the place to go to feel better. I mean, for the last year I've had a health problem where I've got to have surgery and I was kind of banging my head against the brick wall with the NHS. So I ended up going to see a doctor privately and I went to this private hospital and it was such a beautiful building and I was like I know the NHS has got budget constraints and I know the NHS is not like the private market because obviously they have to serve the whole nation, such like. But I was just thinking the environment of this private hospital was so much nicer. But that's an environment where you can probably feel good about yourself and feel better. But I need to introduce you to my GP actually because I was having a conversation, so we'll do it offline Please do I'll introduce you to them because I had a conversation with them where I don't know about your GP.
Speaker 2:But if I want anything done, I have to fill out this bloody online form. You can't just ring them up and speak to somebody. So I filled out this online form.
Speaker 2:Two weeks later I get a response saying we've received your form, we will call you in a week's time, on such and such a day in this period of time. And I was like, oh, this is really annoying because the problem is like I don't have the physical strength to pick up the phone and answer it and unless I can get my carer to get to me like in an instant, like note, you know, note to anybody listening, like don't ring me because you'll hardly ever get through. So anyway, the GP called me, it went to voicemail, I tried to call them back, but of course I couldn't get through. So, anyway, the GP called me. It went to voicemail, I tried to call them back, but of course I couldn't get through. Then they called me again and then they sent me an email saying oh, we've tried calling you twice, we couldn't get through, so we've basically cancelled your request or your question. You'll have to fill out the form again.
Speaker 3:And this is holistic health. There should be a note on your system that says this patient is unable to answer the phone. Therefore, we have to give them a really specific time window. When they have that and you even asking you how's best we go about this with you. Yeah, you know, and not every patient in their gp practice needs that. It'll be a small amount, but then that's, then that's holistic health. Then your mental health is worrying because you're still not getting seen about this, and then it's a blooming cycle, isn't it? And that's it. It's just that humanness that we're trying to reach out for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And the thing is they did end up putting a note on my file, but they don't read it. And, to cut a long story short short, I ended up having a face-to-face appointment with the doctor because actually they ended up saying it was pointless filling out the form because we need to see you in person. We wouldn't be able to do it over the phone anyway. So I went into the GP surgery this is like some weeks later, after I filled out the form and I was having a, you know, obviously talking to the doctor about the health problem.
Speaker 2:And then afterwards I said to them by the way, I think you really need to look at your process, because it's not accessible or inclusive to me as a disabled person. And his response to me was well, that's just our process. If we change it for you, we're going to have to change it for everybody else. And I was like I was about to swear then, but, but I was like what an idiot Editor get ready, yeah, editor at the ready with the buzzing noise, but I was just like, what an idiot.
Speaker 3:They didn't even realize that even the notion of equity giving somebody, the individual, the resources that they need in order to be able to compete on the level playing field anna was in our gp reception not long ago and someone came in who I think was was going through a lot right in there you could tell maybe their physical appearance with with housing and that kind of thing, yeah, and repeat, saying I want an appointment. They're like oh, you'll have to raise I don't have a phone. He's like I don't have a phone. He's like I don't have a phone and this receptionist wasn't hearing, you'll have to ring. He's like well, I don't have a phone, I fill out this online form. I can't. And how often that will happen in that GP practice will be a slim amount, right, I appreciate the internet can be a barrier for a lot of people, but you know phones and stuff and Anna had to intervene. Well, actually, sorry, anna complained after cause she didn't want to put this patient in a very public space feeling more vulnerable. But he ended up and it was about his mental health. He said it was about his mental health. He ends up just walking out.
Speaker 3:Who knows what that individual has now done and the actions they've taken and where it could go. That's what we're talking about. That's that life-saving. All that receptionist had to do was think this is a unique situation. Let's ask them to sit down, even if it's a long wait. That person might have waited to see someone as a unique situation and that's that holisticness. It's seen every patient for who they are. And I think whole assumptions are made, aren't there, about different people, different identities, that everyone thinks and feels the same and it's you just have to ask the right questions. And sometimes you have to ask difficult questions with healthcare, right, awkward, the patient feels, awkward, embarrassing, but saying I'm sorry I've got to ask this. But even that bit of phrasing can just put the patient at ease, right? You know there's a cervical screening that people have to take. Some people have to take we're recommended every few years. I didn't go to my GP this year. I found a specific sexual health charity in Leeds that are LGBTQ inclusive and it was a trans and non-binary open session.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, but that was in town, not everyone could pay to get there. You know it was a trans and non-binary open session, yeah, but that was in town, not everyone could pay to get there. It was physically difficult to find. So you've already got all those challenges. We're just asking people. And yes, you were saying NHS buildings are terrible and they're ugly and all those things, and you're right, they're terrible. For rest, if you're neurodivergent, god help you with all the bright lights and the noise sensitivity and I'm very fortunate I've had that one surgery and I went private because I think I'd really struggle in that setting with noise and loudness and all those things. But it's at least even considering the space. What have we got? What could be a challenge for some people? And that consideration there are. You know. I know GPs have 10 minute appointments to get someone through the door, speak to them, finish their notes and out, and it's an impossible task. It's a really difficult task.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. We're just coming to the end of our conversation, so how do you think inclusive health will impact and improve the lives of healthcare professionals?
Speaker 3:So I think with you know, when I've been in-house with inclusion diversity even if I've, my main focus has been colleague to colleague interactions people aren't just going to stop their learning there. They'll take it to customers and they'll take it to patients, right, obviously, vice versa. Here a lot of the work we do is talking about patient experience, but it's translating also that messaging inside. And what's encouraging is the majority of people that have reached out to us have wanted that patient angle and they've asked for that internal angle to look at as well, because we know that we're losing our healthcare professionals. Like 20% of new trainees are going to Australia, right, our healthcare professionals like 20% of new trainees are going to Australia, right. So we're losing our talent for numerous reasons and that's a whole other 30 minute conversation, right. But Anna has been in those staff rooms, those messes, and had a consultant say out loud to a bunch of people who knew Anna was with me and was in a queer relationship well, being gay is not normal, is it.
Speaker 3:So if they're saying that, they're saying that because they think it's a safe space and they think they're not going to get called up on it. And, by the way, no one called them up on it. Anna was brand new qualified so I felt quite vulnerable with the hierarchy to say anything and Anna's very feminine appearing. I think a lot of people will assume she's straight. Again, don't assume anything, right, people can look in all sorts of kind of ways and have all different kind of lives and no one said anything. So then anna then had to work for four months with a bunch of people and didn't feel safe that anyone was gonna support them, back them up. So what's that doctor gonna say to a patient?
Speaker 2:exactly. Yeah, if they said that in the what they thought was the safety and security of the mess right or the staff room yeah, you're right. Like what kind of thing are they going to say in front of patients who are going to be at their most vulnerable?
Speaker 3:exactly, and and we know psychological safety is vital, isn't it? And we know, if people can't be themselves, how much headspace that takes from them, right? If I was a healthcare professional and I wasn't out as non-binary and I was getting misgendered constantly, a quarter of people of colour have considered leaving the NHS because of racism. Some fun facts to end on and again I'm sorry I've gone off topic. Well, actually it's relevant to this. You know inclusion makes money and you know inclusion saves money. So the NHS annually spend only 40 million on inclusion diversity, which I know that sounds like a lot of money to some people listening, but in terms of the NHS, that is bugger. All it is. 0.03% of the NHS budget is spent on inclusion. Right, it's 0.01% of all of the staff in the NHS work on inclusion. But we know inclusion should be in everyone's job, but we definitely know it's not. And guess how much, roughly approximately, bullying and harassment costs the NHS every year?
Speaker 3:I'd love to know that 2.2 billion, wow, and that's not necessarily they're being sued. That's retainment, that's losing staff right, and all that time and energy and resource that it goes into replacing those staff and all those hidden costs that will have an impact on patients. If our healthcare professionals with lived experience and great understanding of disabilities and race and faith are leaving the NHS, they're not there to support us as patients. They're not there to bring in their diverse ideas. And if they are there, are they safe to say those ideas?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those numbers are staggering. But it's also the effect on people's lives because I did an interview on this podcast a while ago with somebody called Tracy, so it's worth checking out their episode. But she was a head of HR in an NHS trust. A doctor went to her with a concern, a safeguarding concern, and he didn't feel able to speak up. So she supported him in going to the hospital board to raise the concern and they basically tried to brush this concern under the carpet. They made Tracy a scape.
Speaker 2:This doctor actually ended up taking his own life because he wasn't taken seriously, wasn't supported, and the management team ended up blaming him as well for this particular issue. I mean that's devastating. I mean that's the reason why Tracy then left that particular trust and she set up a company where she's creating speak up software where healthcare professionals can anonymously report concerns, issues, bad behavior, that kind of thing. So this kind of incident doesn't happen again. But I mean the numbers that you just told us are staggering and it really annoys me because if the NHS is spending what 0.03% of its budget on inclusion and diversity I mean the former government rhetoric was very much that the NHS was spending too much money on wasteful inclusion and diversity work- Sacking them left right and centre Exactly.
Speaker 2:Employee networks needed to be scrapped. I mean thankfully I mean I try not to get too political on this show Thankfully we've got a new government, but I mean it's just the rhetoric that the former government did around inclusion in public not just the NHS, it was public services and public sector was ridiculous.
Speaker 3:When we're talking about here, like inclusion, when you've got that patient that's felt excluded by that GP or I'm not just shaming GPs, obviously that's the first angle many people go to. Then they feel a lump and a bump and they don go. Then it gets so big to think, no, I've got to go and get this checked. Then their cancer is, however, many stages in and it's too late. It costs even more with treatment. It costs more time. It's then an individual who's no longer in that community. You've then got grief. It saves lives and it saves money with that yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, with that holistic health, and so often health isn't just something that pops up out of nowhere. There's Anna, meets asylum seekers on eight pounds a week, you know, meets people that have gone through horrendous things, and it's so often because of those life experiences their health is now getting impacted. So a tablet can help, but it doesn't really help the grant and it becomes a cycle of healthcare physical health, mental health. It's just a cycle and they impact one another. So actually not only would doing this stuff save that $2.2 billion with discrimination, it would save lives and save money on, probably treatments that aren't needed because things are seen sooner and they're nipped in the bud sooner because the right questions being asked, therefore the right referrals happened in the right time.
Speaker 3:Because the NHS is still remarkable, by the way, it is still incredible. Anne has had patients receive cancer treatment the next day after seeing her as a GP. Right, it's still incredible. But there are some people that have lost a lot of trust and have a lot of fear and worry, and I worry about their health as a result.
Speaker 2:So the penultimate question that I ask everybody is what does inclusive growth mean to you?
Speaker 3:I think, inclusive growth and I'm going to link it into possibly our next question and you kind of give me a heads up about saying like what's something I'd ask people to go away with which is just don't assume we're all guilty of it Me too, and I'm sure you are too. Even though we tell people not to have those biases, they still click off in our head. Our heads are weird. But just think, why did I think that? Why did I assume that? Can I ask that question instead? Because we make whole assumptions and it can feel very degrading to people. We can miss out really important things, which is life-saving, and I think with that, growth will happen. There are so many more things that connect us than divide us. Everyone would like to tell you otherwise at the moment with the rhetoric of so many years of it, but I think we'll grow with that. Talk to people about differences, talk to people about similarities and just ask questions. We can still.
Speaker 3:I think again, a lot of people feel like they can't ask people things right With me with non-binary right. I've met people recently saying I feel like I shouldn't be able to ask about, I shouldn't ask about pronouns, because they've never met anyone and they've just heard the newspapers say if you dare ask someone, they'll bite your head off. We won't. I can tell if you are not being nice to me with your body language, with your tone If you ask oh Ellen, can I ask you about your pronouns? Yeah, sure, if it's Ellen, why did Bloody Al use those pronouns? That's a different conversation and I'm probably going to ignore you.
Speaker 3:So let's not assume it's still okay to ask questions at the right time in the right place. I'm sorry to pick on you as an example. Whilst you're queuing at Costa Coffee, it's not okay for someone to go and ask you about your experiences. But if you've got a new colleague joining your team, it's asking like how can I best work with you? And you'll probably say don't ring me, drop me a message on Teams, you know, and it's asking in a way of getting to know each other and there's some things you need to know, there's some things you don't. If you're curious, there is Google. It has a lot of wonderful things and there's a lot of people like yourselves, like me, that do put things out on LinkedIn and share those stories. So just don't assume Ask with empathy, ask with care, and so often the other person is happy to chat about it.
Speaker 2:Or they'll say I don't fancy chatting about that today, but here's a great resource actually, you've just reminded me there's a really great product called the manual of me, which is free to a point, but then if you want the bells and whistles, you've got to pay for it. But it's online and you create like a personal manual of you operating manual, hence why it's called manual of me. But it's really great for teams, because what you can do is you can get each team member to fill out the Manual of Me. You can select the questions as well, so you could say, for example I mean, they have templates that you can use. But you could have a question like what's the best way of communicating with me?
Speaker 2:What time of the day am I most productive? How do I like to work? Where do I get my best ideas? So you could have all those kinds of things in there, as well as IND related ones. So you could say what's your preferred pronouns? For example, do you have a disability or long-term health condition that we should be aware of? So yeah, so it's a really useful tool. So if you're still listening to us right now, hopefully you've been hanging in there with us.
Speaker 3:It's a fantastic tool to us. You know they tuned out a long time ago. You know what's really interesting. They also have that in hospice care. A bit of saying again, let's not assume that this person's end of life and those people at end of life can be in very different positions. Right, some are no longer verbal, some are still very, very aware, and it just says this is what I like listening to. I like this on the background, I like this kind of lighting, I like this kind of food. This was me, this is what I did, and it tells that story and I think that would also be great to have in healthcare, in hospitals, because it gives a humanity and it's saying there's a person behind this. Yes, they're in a really difficult position right now, but they're a working professional with thousands of people who follow them on LinkedIn. Right, Like, that's who you are, but people aren't. They're assuming that you aren't like and they're forgetting a human being behind it.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely, now, before you go. If the person listening to us right now wants to learn more about inclusion in healthcare, perhaps they want to reach out and get your support. Maybe they work in the healthcare sector and they feel like their organisation could do with some training or some support around EDI within healthcare. What should they do?
Speaker 3:So we are at inclusivehealthcouk. You can also find us on linkedin under that name or you can find me ellen edenbrough. So e-l-l-e-n-e-d-e-n-b-r-o-w. I am the only one. I'm a very famous ellen edenbrough. You can find me on anything, because I am the only one in the world and there I post a variety of just inclusion-based stuff, but also health angle as well. So even if you're not in the health sector, feel free to give me a little follow and learn some new bits as we go.
Speaker 2:Brilliant Ellen, thanks ever so much for joining me today. I have thoroughly enjoyed that conversation.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:I think we could have continued easily on for a few more hours, but we'll have to leave it there, unfortunately, and I really look forward to following your work and seeing the impact that you're going to make in healthcare.
Speaker 3:Thanks ever so much, cheers.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and thank you for tuning into this episode with Ellen and myself. Hopefully you've taken away some inspiration, ideas, things that you could put into practice, especially if you do work within the healthcare sector, but maybe there's some transferable things that you can apply to your own organisation even if you don't work in healthcare. But thanks for tuning in and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of this Inclusive Growth Podcast, which will be coming up very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby