Intersectionality and Inclusive Strategies

What if you could create an inclusive workplace strategy that not only aligns with your business goals, but stands resilient against external pressures and anti-DEI rhetoric? We sit down with Grace Mosuro, a distinguished inclusion strategist and founder of Acquaintz Consulting, who reveals the secrets to doing just that. Grace's journey, marked by her experiences as a black woman and a breast cancer thriver, offers profound lessons on connecting with your organisation's 'why' to ensure your DEI initiatives are both effective and enduring.

Our conversation delves into the frustrating realities of healthcare and racial inequity, illuminating Grace's personal struggles to be heard by medical professionals and the broader systemic issues that persist. We unpack the reluctance of senior leaders in the workplace to address race equity and the critical need for organisations to recognise and confront their role in perpetuating these disparities. 

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Chapters

• 0:01 Creating an Inclusive Workplace Strategy
• 10:17 Silencing Pain and Avoiding Race Equity
• 16:35 Addressing Cancer and Inclusion in Organizations
• 23:19 Recognizing Unconscious Bias in Recruitment
• 28:59 Embracing Inclusive Growth Together

Transcript

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon. Future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I am Toby Mildon. And today I'm joined by Grace Mosuro. And I'm really pleased to be sitting down with Grace, 'cause Grace and I do very similar work. So Grace is an Inclusion Strategist. I describe myself as a Workplace Inclusion Consultant. And so the work that we do is along very similar lines and it's just great to catch up with a fellow EDI practitioner where we can swap notes and perhaps some war stories. So Grace, thanks for joining me today. It's lovely to see you.

Grace Mosuro: Oh, my absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for having me Toby.

Toby Mildon: So Grace, can we just dive straight in and can you just tell us a bit more about the work that you do as an Inclusion Strategist, please? 

Grace Mosuro: Yeah. So I am, like you said, an Inclusion Strategist. So I run a consultancy called Aquaintz Consulting. And essentially my passion is helping organizations to start from... Like, to get it right from the beginning. So starting with strategy, do you have an inclusion strategy? If you do amazing, but when was it written? And let's take a look and really dissect it to see if it fits the needs of your business and your people. And if you haven't got one, absolutely fine, but you need one. So how do I support you to build one that, again, is all about the needs of your business and the needs of your people and your customers. I think the reason that I'm so passionate about starting at strategy is because I feel like whenever the world gets a bit noisy about equality, diversity, and inclusion, organizations park it, or they will reprioritize and look at other things until it gets quiet again.

Grace Mosuro: But when you have a strategy that anchors you to your purpose, then you stay focused. And I think that that's where we are seeing the gaps at the moment, particularly over the last few months where there's been so much noise and anti-DEI rhetoric. Because organizations don't have a strategy that really drives why they do what they do, it's very easy to move on and to leave DEI behind. But if you know as a business actually inclusion is a key part of our business strategy, this is why we're doing it, this is what it's gonna help us to achieve, and this is why we can't divert from it, then you stay the line, you stay the course. I then use the work that we do on inclusion strategy to support organizations to then identify the initiatives that will help them to achieve their strategy. So, what training do we need to achieve this? What coaching do our staff and our teams need to achieve this? And we do that piece of work together.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. I love how you're talking about strategy 'cause that's the approach that I take with my clients and really getting them to think about the why and to borrow the words of Simon Sinek, he says... Well, he wrote the book, Start with Why. He says, "People don't buy into what you do. They buy into why you do it." So...

Grace Mosuro: Absolutely, yeah.

Toby Mildon: It's really important to get senior leaders to connect with that why. So what brought you into the world of EDI? 

Grace Mosuro: So I'm a Black woman and growing up and kind of going through my career, I found a number of challenges that I didn't understand at the time. And then I started to notice some differences in my experiences to those of my White female colleagues or my White colleagues. And I really started to do some work to understand why that might be happening. Then obviously George Floyd passed away and it was the first time in my career that there was a safe space for people that looked like me to actually talk about their experiences and to really raise some of the issues that we were having. Being seen, being heard, being promoted. Throughout my career, I'd always needed to leave organizations to take the next step in my career because once I was in a business and doing my job really well, I was seen as, that is her job.

Grace Mosuro: And I'd go for opportunities and not be promoted, and I'd see people that don't look like me being promoted. And when George Floyd happened, we were able to have some really honest conversations. And I remember my CEO at the time say, he actually apologized and said, "I get it now." 'Cause I had previously tried to raise some issues and been shut down and almost gas-lit to a certain extent. And George Floyd's murder unfortunately was what was necessary in my career for people to listen. And I think that was the experience for a lot of Black people across the world. A few years later I was then diagnosed with breast cancer and I was in an appointment with my consultant and she said to me, we were doing the usual small talk while she was like digging needles in my head 'cause I was having acupuncture. And she said, "Oh, what do you do for a living?" And I told her and I said, "But I feel like this situation, what I'm going through now is the kick up the bum that I need to walk into my purpose." And she said, "Oh, you wanna be careful 'cause now that you've had cancer, it's gonna be really difficult to get a job." That's the last thing you wanna hear while you are having treatment. But little did she know that she was the last thing that I needed to take that leap because I sat there thinking, I'm Black, I'm a woman, those are things I can't hide. But I've had cancer now. People can't see that, so am I gonna declare that? 

Grace Mosuro: And I thought, actually there's an intersectional experience and this now adds an additional level of intersectionality, that people shouldn't have to feel like they need to hide. I should be able to bring every single bit of me to work. And I felt like actually I want to support people that are going through similar things to be able to do the same, to feel safe being and bringing every part of themselves to the workplace. But also I appreciated that organizations don't understand what they don't know, right? So I felt there was a massive need for me to come into this space to support organizations to better understand the lived experience of people with intersecting identities and really just to get how they can support them more effectively. You don't need to know everything, it's about the appetite to learn. We learn every single day, if we want to. And so that's really what led me in my journey to becoming an Inclusion Strategist and doing this work.

Toby Mildon: That's really fascinating. Can I ask you a personal question? 

Grace Mosuro: Of course you can.

Toby Mildon: As you were describing your experience with cancer and that exchange with that nurse, it reminded me, so a Black colleague of mine was telling me about some research that was done around the inequalities in healthcare. And in maternity, Black women are given less painkillers because there's this assumption that Black women can take the pain, I guess. Do you feel that there was an inequality in terms of the cancer treatment that you received through healthcare? 

Grace Mosuro: So I had... I've gotta be really honest, it's difficult with cancer because I have no comparison. There is no one in my life that has had breast cancer. So there was no one that I could go to to ask like, what was it like for you? But one thing that I will say for me is that The Royal Marsden where I was treated were absolutely amazing. Everything that needed to get done was done. I think the only challenge that I had was at the start of my diagnosis. So when I was first diagnosed, the consultant that I was given just didn't care. He didn't seem to me like he cared. And I was asking loads of questions and he was very flippant. He just didn't really take me seriously and didn't seem that bothered. To me it seemed like I was just a another number. And I had to say to him one day, 'cause I was so emotional by this point, I had to say to him one day, "You might not care about me, but there are people in my life that need me and I need you to take me seriously." And that really shocked him. And woke him right up and after that he was amazing. So I think that that's the only instance that I'd say I felt like I needed to really speak up for myself. And I did because, I've got a daughter, at the time she was eight, I'm a single mother. I have, my mom who's not very well, I've got younger siblings. And for me it was bigger than me. Me surviving, this isn't about me, it's about everybody else.

Grace Mosuro: You need to take this seriously. But it's funny that you mention maternity though, because when I was in labor, I had a really, really long labor, 28 hours. And I remember getting up to like hour 20 and I'd gone the whole time and I'd said before I even went into labor, "I'm not having an epidural. No matter what I say, do not let me have an epidural." By hour 20 I felt like I was dying. It was an out-of-body experience. No one knew when the baby was gonna come. My waters hadn't broken. So they broke my waters and I said, "Okay, is the baby gonna come soon?" And they said, "We don't know. It could be an hour, it could be six. We don't know." And at that point I remember saying, "I want an epidural." And all of my... Like my husband, at the time, my sister, they were like, "You said you don't want one, you don't want one." And I was like, "I know, I'm really sorry, but I need one." And I remember it took ages, like over an hour for the person that puts the epidural in to get to me. And when he got there, I was in so much pain my focus at that time was just surviving. So I'd gone into kind of a meditation mode at this point. And they put a cannula in and I didn't flinch. And he said, "Are you sure you need the epidural?" And I didn't say a word because I was focusing on surviving. And he kept asking me, and my sister, I looked at my sister and she looked at him and she said, "She needs it."

Grace Mosuro: And he said, "The only reason I ask is because I put that cannula in and she didn't flinch." And I looked at him and I said, "I need it." Because again, my upbringing is very much as a Black woman, be strong, you don't make too much noise, you're powerful, you're this, you're that. So we are taught to almost silence ourselves even when we're in pain. So to him it looked like, she's fine. But actually inside I was physically dying. And in that instance I was like, "Wow, you can't see my pain because I'm not exhibiting it in the same way that maybe other people do. But I have said that I need something and I need you to have heard that I need that thing." I've not changed my mind just 'cause I'm not screaming. So it is really interesting 'cause I found in that time, it's like I've said I need the epidural. If I didn't need it, I'd say. Like just do the thing. But it was just really interesting because my sister also told me that they had gone in with the epidural needle, which I have never seen, but apparently it's quite big. And they'd gone in two or three times because they couldn't get in the bone. I didn't feel any of that because I was in so much pain and I was concentrating so much on surviving, I couldn't feel any of what was going on there.

Toby Mildon: I was thinking the needle probably didn't... That the pain of the needle was probably nothing in comparison to the...

Grace Mosuro: Didn't compare.

Toby Mildon: The pain that you were already experiencing.

Grace Mosuro: Exactly. And I think that, that is something maybe, I don't know the science of it, I don't know if Black women do have a higher threshold of pain. I just know that I was so focused on surviving and the pain that I was already feeling was so great that anything else didn't compare. But I just think it's really important when we talk about healthcare equality, it's just listening to us. Like traditionally Black women are taught to be silent and not to ask for things. So if a Black woman is asking for something, she needs it.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. Yeah. That's really fascinating. I've had, I think I've had similar experiences in healthcare as well. 'Cause I was born with a disability and many occasions where I think doctors are not listening or nurses are not listening or they make assumptions that, for example, that I don't do anything with my life. And they don't realize that I run my own business and I'm in a relationship and...

Grace Mosuro: Exactly.

Toby Mildon: Things like that. It's the assumptions that people make that are quite damaging.

Grace Mosuro: Definitely.

Toby Mildon: I know that the work that I do with clients, there's a lot of fear about talking about EDI. I talk to senior leaders who are afraid about talking about a number of different topics because I think, on one level, they don't want to get it wrong. They don't want to use the wrong language, they don't want to cause upset or anguish. They don't want to make themselves look daft. Because I think a lot of senior leaders suffer from imposter syndrome where they feel like they should have all the answers or they should be seen to know what they're talking about because of their position in the organization. So in your experience, what are some of the topics that businesses are still avoiding talking about within the workplace? 

Grace Mosuro: For me the biggest topic that is still being avoided is race equity. Organizations... When we look at how that gets tackled and in what order, race is always right at the bottom. And I think that's because it is such a huge topic, right? And I think for a lot of people, when we look at dominant cultures, there's this feeling of almost like, if we talk about race, we've got to accept responsibility for the fact that the playing field isn't level. And I think that, that's a big part of the work that I do is helping people to appreciate that you can't be blamed for the legacy of racial inequity. You can't be blamed for that. 'Cause you weren't here at the beginning, you didn't do anything, but what you can be held responsible for is the role you play in it today. And I think that that's what's so powerful about organizations and leaders that choose to lead from the front when it comes to racial equity, is that actually you are owning that, you are taking that responsibility.

Grace Mosuro: And when we talk a lot about White privilege, people kind of, some people's backs get up. Like, "I don't have any privilege. I was raised in a council estate. My parents didn't have any money." And it's just having that awareness that you wake up every day not necessarily having to think about the fact that you might be looked at or treated differently just because of the color of your skin. And just having that awareness is really, really powerful. So race equity is the one that I think for me personally and from what I see in the work that I do, is the one that people still kind of cringe at when we say, "Okay, so how are you tackling this?" And they kind of brace themselves like, "Well." Yeah, that's the biggest one. I think when we talk about cancer as well. Cancer is one that organizations are still getting their heads around is, firstly, do they know that once someone has been diagnosed with cancer, they are classed as legally disabled for the rest of their lives? Do they appreciate that? I know that as soon as I was declared cancer-free, everyone kind of was just like, "Yay, you're back to normal." And it's like, actually anyone that has survived cancer will never be who they were before again. The treatment physically changes us, but also there is a mental change that takes place as well where not just because of the treatment, but also because of what we've lost.

Grace Mosuro: There is a loss and there's a grieving process that happens after cancer. And I think that organizations still don't understand how to discuss it. I know that after I had my treatment, my organization started to talk about cancer a lot more. And they did a poll to ask employees how many people had had cancer in their lifetime. And because what they had on their diversity information is, firstly, they weren't asking that question, but also not many people had disclosed it. When they then went out to ask the population, it was at least 30% of our business had had cancer in their lifetime. And that is a huge number, right? Especially when we're talking about the fact that now one in two of us will be impacted or will have cancer in our lifetimes. So that was a really significant one. And it also alerted the business to the fact that actually this is huge, we need to do something about this, we need to talk about this.

Grace Mosuro: I think the biggest challenges organizations have around addressing or talking about cancer in the workplace and making reasonable adjustments is because every type of cancer is different. There isn't one type of cancer. And it therefore will impact people differently. There are concerns about recurrence. They say within the first five years, that is kind of the chance of recurrence is significantly high. So organizations worry about is this person gonna be off sick a lot because they're still recovering from their treatment? Are they gonna get it again? Potentially, how's that gonna impact us financially if we're paying for sick leave. Is this gonna impact our insurance premiums? Et cetera. So that's where the thinking around, "Am I gonna disclose this to an organization?" Or, "Is this gonna be seen to them as too much of a headache and therefore they're not gonna give me the job?" So those are the things that I think organizations still struggle to really look at because they just don't know. And my biggest shoutout and call to action is we don't expect you to know everything, but if you have the appetite to learn, there are people out there doing this work that can support you to really address this in a way that enables your employees to bring their full selves to work, but to also feel safe in your workplace.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, and there has to be that will, doesn't there? From the organization to want to talk about and address matters like...

Grace Mosuro: Definitely.

Toby Mildon: Race, inequality, and supporting people who are living with cancer.

Grace Mosuro: Definitely.

Toby Mildon: So are you aware of any, or have you worked with any organizations where you think they are being bold and they are actively addressing racial inequality in the workplace or doing a really good job at supporting employees who are living with cancer or? 

Grace Mosuro: So I don't know of anyone doing the work around cancer, 'cause I've not seen that promoted significantly, but one organization that really stands out for me as just being up there in terms of their commitment to equality, diversity, and inclusion, and creating a space where everyone is represented throughout the hierarchy of the business, is the City of London. If you go on the City of London's website, every single page of that website, from my perspective, screams inclusion. All of their strategies, all of their commitments, they build inclusion through every single part of it. And I think for me, that really stands out as an organization that gets it and is truly committed to it, because I think where we see the differences in the level of commitment, but also that focus is when you go on to an organization's website, for example, and you search for a reference to diversity and you only find it right at the bottom in the footnotes, there's a statement that says, "Our diversity and inclusion statement," or something like that. Whereas with the City of London, you see it everywhere. It's absolutely amazing, and I think that's what's really important is, inclusion is about employee engagement, it's about increased performance, right? So it should be a key and a core part of every single element of the business, from attraction to retention, to engagement, to progression.

Grace Mosuro: It shouldn't just be a nice-to-have at the bottom of the page just to tick a box. So for me, the City of London is an organization that really stands out to me as really kind of just doing amazing things when it comes to evidencing and really driving inclusion in a way that is real.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, that's really good. I'll have a look on their website and try and get them on this podcast...

Grace Mosuro: Yes.

Toby Mildon: Now that you've mentioned them. So you and I operate within the same space, can you give us some examples of recent work that you've been doing.

Grace Mosuro: Yeah, so a lot of my work recently has been around creating safe spaces for people to talk about belonging and inclusion. I think that one of the benefits of being a woman with lived experience of some of the challenges that we're trying to coach organizations through, is that I can create a safe space where people feel comfortable asking the questions that they think are silly. My view is there aren't any silly questions, I think it's better to ask than not to ask, but also I'm always blown away by the fact that a lot of the questions that we think are silly loads of other people have been thinking of the exact same questions but just haven't felt safe asking them. So I facilitate those conversations. And that's really important for me. So the workshops that I've had recently on those have been quite impactful, particularly when you have... I had in one of my workshops recently, a White male who came into the session, almost begrudgingly, I'd say, and kind of sat there and said, "I think it's really easy to get a job here irrespective of who you are. When I applied, they didn't ask me for my race, they didn't ask me for any kind of protected characteristics, I think everyone has equal access of getting a job here." And I could see there was only two other...

Grace Mosuro: There as only two Black people in the room and there weren't any Asian people in the room, and I could see the two Black people in the room kind of curl up a little bit. So I could see the physical discomfort, and so I listened and I said, "Amazing, but can you appreciate that... " And I shared my Yoruba name with everyone. So my Yoruba name is Oluwagbemisola. My surname is Mosuro, that's how we pronounce it. I said, "Can you imagine that if you received a CV or if whoever hired you received a CV that said, Oluwagbemisola Mosuro, when you say a more, that there is a chance that that CV compared to John Matthews might be held up or potentially overlooked purely because they can't pronounce that name.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Grace Mosuro: And while I pronounced my name, you could see him physically jerk a little bit. And he's like, and I said, "Do you see where kind of there might be a difference?" And he said, "Absolutely. I get it." And just that one little bit of sharing was powerful for him to see that there is a difference. So whilst there might not be diversity data asked as part of an application process, someone's name alone in instances can be a barrier to entry. Not because the organization don't want to be inclusive, not because the organization don't want Black and Brown people in there, purely because the recruiter may not want to offend and therefore to avoid offense they will overlook a candidate. And I've worked in recruitment myself and I've seen it happen. It's not a deliberate form of discrimination, but it is discrimination that impacts many, many people with culturally-sounding names that dominant cultures can't pronounce. And that causes a barrier to entry and subsequently progression and equity in those spaces.

Toby Mildon: And quite often in recruitment there's other things going on as well. So I remember when I was working at the BBC and I was in this open planned co-working space in broadcasting house, there's these two managers were sitting next to me, the table next to me, and they were sifting through CVs and deciding who to call in for an interview. And one manager turned to the other and said, "I just don't think this person's going to be a culture fit for the team." And I was shocked 'cause I was like, they didn't realize what they had just said, but because I think you and I have probably got an ear for this kind of thing, I was like, "Hang on a second, what's going on here?" Because they've just said so and so is not a culture fit for the team. What does that mean? That means that basically they're looking for somebody in their own image.

Grace Mosuro: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: And the BBC valued diversity because the BBC's vision is to be the most creative organization in the world. And the BBC can only achieve that by having a diversity of lived experiences, perspectives, thoughts, et cetera, et cetera, around the creative table.

Grace Mosuro: Yeah, definitely.

Toby Mildon: So to say something like, "You are not a culture fit for the team," is code word for, "We just don't think that you are like us."

Grace Mosuro: Yeah.

Toby Mildon: And so you were describing somebody's name, but it could be other things like looking down and seeing somebody's had lots of jobs and just saying, "Well, this person's flaky. They're not committed." Again, they're making assumptions about the candidate.

Grace Mosuro: Definitely. Or even looking at where someone went to school or where they grew up or something. Well, they didn't grow up where we grew up, or they didn't go to the same place we went to, and it's crazy that we still see that. But there is then that class element as well is they're not part of the club so they're not gonna fit in here. It's crazy.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. I like how you were describing that situation where you were with that group and the manager. I liked how you picked up on the body language because, I don't know if you've come across her work, but the work of Brene Brown, who's a researcher over in America, she talks about vulnerability. She talks about safe and brave spaces and it's something that I talk about quite a lot because she says, yes, it's important to create the safe space, which we talk about a lot in our work in terms of that psychological safety, people feeling comfortable speaking up. But she says, you have to go deeper than that. You need to have brave spaces where you are challenging and you have those difficult or awkward conversations that you might steer away from. And I like how you demonstrated you created that brave space because you picked up on the body language and otherwise, I think you could have just skimmed over that remark.

Grace Mosuro: Yeah, absolutely.

Toby Mildon: And said, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's all merit based around here, isn't it? Of course the best person's gonna get the job." But I think your intuition told you, hang on a second, the experience isn't equal here.

Grace Mosuro: Yeah, definitely. And I think that's what's so important as well is, there's... I recently interviewed someone who was talking about the dominance of White women in roles that are leading and driving equality, diversity, and inclusion in organizations and the impact that that then has on other underrepresented groups, because from a White woman's lens, you are looking at things from your lens, from your experience, from the experience of women. But there can sometimes be a lack of understanding of the intersectional female experience, whether that be sexuality, whether that be race, whether that be ability. So really thinking about who do we have in these roles, but also who are they listening to? So who are they working with to really inform and drive the focus of that business and the understanding of that business and the change that that business is trying to create. And I think that's why it's so important that, that we have diverse voices involved in this work because we are able to see things like body language or to kind of get a sense of the room and how people are thinking and feeling and really create safe spaces and brave spaces for everyone to really speak up and be heard.

Toby Mildon: Cool. The penultimate question that I ask everybody, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, is what does inclusive growth mean to you? 

Grace Mosuro: Inclusive growth to me means freedom, right? It means freedom to speak, to exist, to thrive, to just do your absolute best unhindered. I was talking to someone a while ago and they talked about the fact that in an assimilation culture, or in a culture where we talk about, "You're in the UK, you've got to be like us, and you've got to kind of do things as we do." What that essentially does says to people that aren't White British people, is that instead of you folding your arms in your normal way, the way that you normally do, we're asking you to fit in with us to fold your arms the other way. And if anyone tried that, it is really, really uncomfortable. So then asking someone to essentially do that for eight hours a day while they're in the office, and also excel in their role and be creative and drive the business forward, that's a handicap that we are creating for people when we expect them to just fit in.

Grace Mosuro: And for me, inclusive growth is about understanding that actually everyone is different. That everyone should be able to show up as themselves, freely as themselves without having to fold their arms in other ways so that they can then contribute and do things that they're capable of doing without the hindrance of assimilation or feeling like they need to change themselves and perform for eight hours as well as performing in their actual roles and doing what their job description tells them to do as well.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I love that. And I like the analogy you've used about crossing your arms, 'cause I've done that in coach training where the instructor says to everybody, "Cross your arms." And then they say, "Now swap them over the other way." And then you realize actually you have a default way of crossing your arms, which is very comfortable and natural.

Grace Mosuro: Exactly.

Toby Mildon: And then to be asked to consciously cross your arms the other way is quite difficult to do actually. Yeah. So actually that could be a really good example for the person listening to us right now. So, if you are still listening to us, thanks for continuing to listen to our conversation, but could you just cross your arms for us and now cross them the other way and just compare the two, 'cause one will probably feel quite natural to you and one exactly will feel very unnatural and has to be a conscious act. Now, Grace, before we go, if the person listening to us right now wants to follow your work, maybe they want to continue the conversation with you after this episode, how can they do that? 

Grace Mosuro: Connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm very, very active on LinkedIn, but also anything new that I'm doing or any of my insights I share quite regularly on LinkedIn. So please do connect and send a DM if you'd like to have a call and just talk.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. And also, I know that you are currently writing a book, so when that gets published, presumably LinkedIn is where you're going to let everyone know about it.

Grace Mosuro: Yes, definitely. So I'll announce it on LinkedIn and also via my newsletter which people can join on LinkedIn too.

Toby Mildon: And what's your book gonna be? 

Grace Mosuro: So my book is going to be about the impact the culture has on the way that people present at school and in the world of work and how that can subsequently impact their career journey. It's essentially going to be a guide and just some information for people wanting to understand the lived experience and how culture can impact the people that they work with and the people that they lead, and how they can support them in the workplace.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, Grace, thanks ever so much for joining us today. I've thoroughly enjoyed talking with you and I hope you get the opportunity to collaborate on something together.

Grace Mosuro: I'd love that. Thank you so much for having me, Toby. I have really enjoyed it and I've learned a lot from you as well.

Toby Mildon: Thank you. You're welcome. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast with myself and Grace. As Grace said, if you want to continue the conversation with her offline, then reach out on LinkedIn and connect and DM her. Likewise, if you want to get in touch with me, connect with me on LinkedIn or go to our website mildon.co.uk and we can continue the conversation. Until the next time, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the podcast, which will be coming up very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself. Bye-Bye.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.