The Future Kind: Designing Inclusive Organisations

Discover how to reshape the workplace into an environment that thrives on diversity and inclusivity. My conversation with Natalie Pearce, co-founder of The Future Kind, unveils the transformative impact of integrating user experience design principles with diversity and inclusion strategies. As we journey from our experiences at the BBC to our current roles, we reveal how empathetic, human-centred design can form the bedrock of a culture that not only welcomes but also celebrates varied perspectives. Natalie brings a wealth of knowledge from her background in strategy and service design, and together, we dissect the art of creating operating systems that align with a company's cultural vision, turning strategy into reality.

What's the secret to building kinder, fairer, and more efficiently designed companies? Natalie and I explore the magic that happens when designers join forces with HR professionals, merging the worlds of creativity and compliance to forge experiences that resonate with employees. Learn how this powerful collaboration can lead to a workplace where everyone feels valued and heard, and where the very design of everyday interactions can contribute to employee retention and satisfaction. This episode promises a wealth of stories, insights, and practical advice for anyone looking to craft a workplace culture that is not only inclusive but also inspires growth and innovation.

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

Chapters

• 0:01 Creating Inclusive Cultures Through Design
• 12:23 Co-Creation and Company Operating System
• 27:02 Creating Inclusive Growth Through Design

Transcript

Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon. Future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I am Toby Mildon, and today I'm joined by Natalie Pearce who is one of the co-founders of The Future Kind. And the reason why I wanted to sit down and have a conversation with Natalie was because The Future Kind really got my attention because they are a very kind of human-centric organisation. And that really appealed to me because before getting into diversity and inclusion I worked in user experience and design at the BBC. And I've actually managed to transfer a lot of what I learned from user experience and design over to diversity and inclusion. And it's something I actually talk about in my first book, Inclusive Growth, where I've got a whole chapter on what I call Employee Experience and Design. And that's really about human-centered design.

Toby Mildon: And then, rather than trying to fix individuals, think about the journeys that people go on and try and make those journeys much more inclusive and accessible. So, I'm really excited to be able to sit down with Natalie and just learn from her about her kind of philosophy and the work that she does at The Future Kind. So Natalie, it's lovely to see you, thanks for joining me today.

Natalie Pearce: Thank you for having me, I'm really excited, and I love the kind of overlap between our worlds which will be fun to explore.

Toby Mildon: Definitely. So, obviously, I gave a little bit of an introduction there, could you just introduce yourself a bit more, tell us who you are, where you're based, what you do and what got you into the work that you do nowadays? 

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, I'd love to. So I'm Natalie as we know. So I'm based in London and my background is in strategy, service design and kind of experience design. And then, that kind of transformed or shifted into culture design and employee experience design and culture change which really kinda summarises what The Future Kind collective is all about. So we describe our work as helping companies bring together their culture and their strategy through cleverly designed operating systems which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit more. How I got into that was, I guess it was a little bit of a squiggly journey, so I didn't know that that's what I was gonna do. I did economics at university so it was quite far away from what I'm doing now and I essentially kind of fell into design but during that process of falling into it. I fell in love with it as well. So that was when I was working at a bank and did lots of placements and kind of ended up in digital design. And then, I was fortunate enough to join a design agency just as it was forming. So I was employee number three and I felt such a strong sense of belonging when I joined that I kind of got really hooked on this idea of helping others feel that same way.

Natalie Pearce: So I said things like, "Oh I'm gonna look after or I'm gonna help design our onboarding experience", and I'll just follow the same kind of human-centered, user-centered design approach that we would do in our client work and that kind of, it was onboarding and then it was like the apprentice scheme. And then I kept kind of picking up these little side projects. And eventually I asked if this could be my full-time role, and I felt really fortunate back then because the agency was actually owned by a bigger technology consultancy. So my role, that bigger technology consultancy had a traditional HR team who I collaborated with really closely but it meant that my role was employee experience design and engagement and the things that I really, really enjoyed, so I kind of had this wonderful playground to kind of bring these two worlds and these two passions of mine together.

Toby Mildon: That's really cool. It's funny how these things collide 'cause when I left university I started working in technology, putting systems into businesses. I worked in telecommunications and then I ended up in healthcare and then when I was at the BBC I ended up working in user experience and design, 'cause I was always much more interested in how people interacted with technology rather than the back end of the technology and yeah, I worked on loads of UX projects at the BBC. And then as I mentioned in the intro, able to take a lot of that user experience and design approach and methodology but apply it to diversity and inclusion, so it sounds like we've got some similar experiences there.

Natalie Pearce: Definitely. I think that the ethos and principles around user experience and user-centered design really supports everything or a lot of the things that we're trying to do within diversity and inclusion especially around empathizing for different people's needs and I guess what I really like about design is that it really pushes you to kind of put yourself in other people's shoes. And really try to understand someone's experience. And I've always been a really big advocate of the kind of there's a kind of thought or a practice in design about your extreme users and the idea that if you design and prioritize the needs of your extreme users, you actually end up meeting people in the middle as well. And I've always been a really strong believer. Sometimes it's extreme users, sometimes it's the most marginalised users. And I've always been really quite passionate about that particular approach, which isn't always the case. Like I do think at the same time some design processes focus too much on the majority. But when I see the research approaches, especially the pick up on the more marginalised experience, I think that does really well.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. Have you got an example of where we have considered the needs of marginalised users and how that has actually made the overall design better for everybody? 

Natalie Pearce: So I used to work in banking as I mentioned. I'm not sure I mentioned, that's what I was doing when I came out of university. I did a banking graduate scheme and then ended up in the digital design team. And we were designing around the mobile app, so features in the mobile app and how we could improve those. And I think that in the digital world, there is often a focus on getting a broad amount of people. But I think sometimes if we don't bring in the more marginalised voices, then, we can kind of forget those and design without those needs in mind. So one of the projects that we were looking at was around different types of payments that you could do through the app. And the majority of our research participants were kind of middle aged. There was like a variance in terms of like gender and other protected characteristics. But we realised quite quickly that we were missing people that were like just coming into like financial literacy and just getting an account who were probably more digitally aware but hadn't really entered into the banking sphere before.

Natalie Pearce: And then, you've got people who are much older and new to the digital world and way of interacting. And when we bought those two spectrums into the design process, we started to learn that some of the features that we were putting in were actually making it harder for some of these groups. But if you looked in the middle, like it was kind of, it didn't really make a difference to them, them. So by us inviting in these spectrum extreme users, if you like, on this particular spectrum of age, we realised that we could make some changes that would make, this was more particularly for the older users that would make it easy for them in terms of like texts and button size and things like that, that didn't have an impact on everyone else, but it did have a really meaningful impact on them.

Natalie Pearce: So that's a really simple example, but we didn't know that and we wouldn't have considered that had we not said, let's just expand this out, 'cause we did have quite a good variance, but it wasn't going right to the like outer 20% for example. So that was a really meaningful small change. But I know that it had a big difference for those that we bought in from that more marginalised group.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, that's really cool. What are some of the other things that design can teach us about creating inclusive cultures? 

Natalie Pearce: So I think that it's probably worth touching on what we mean by design. So I think design in its essence, from my perspective, it's around creating solutions that address the needs and experiences of individuals within that particular market or industry or community. Now, there's obviously schools of thought that talks about like beauty and practicality and all of that good stuff, but I'm gonna focus more on that experience definition. And it's usually discussed in the context of customers, but I think it's super applicable to creating great cultures and great organisations as well. So having, like, I guess one of the main principles is a human-centered approach that's based in empathy. And I think that that's really an important for inclusivity 'cause it's all about listening and learning about other people's needs and experiences. And when we think about organisations, there are so many different backgrounds and identities and viewpoints, which means that different employees will have different working experiences.

Natalie Pearce: And we want to make sure that we're bringing all of those different voices and different experience in, because then it means that we are more likely to meet the needs of our customers who are also diverse and unique and have lots of different experiences. So, that like empathy is one part of it. But another part of design, which I think is really important for like inclusive, cultures and inclusive growth is the whole idea of co-creation. So a more collaborative process that brings together a really diverse range of people to create solutions rather than a small homogenous group with similar needs and interests, creating solutions that are meant to engage a really vast, diverse group of customers. And it's the same thing with our organisation.

Natalie Pearce: So how can we have... Create more like active participation and collaboration from all members in a team. So we can start to co-create things like our values, our norms, our kind of ways of working and practices and even policies. So it's no good us creating policies that don't affect us without the people who are affected in the room contributing and giving their input. So I think empathy is really important. That's about its understanding, but the co-creation part is about action and kind of putting that empathy into action while still making sure those voices are heard along the journey.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, that's really cool. It's reminding me when I was working at the BBC in user experience and design, we used to do a lot of ethnographic research with public, and there was this funny story where we were developing some new features and we were doing some ethnographic research and we had researchers going into people's houses and spending time with them. And there was this one woman who was obsessed with wild cats and she loved David Attenborough. Like anything that David Attenborough made, she was obsessed with it. And then, she turned around to us and she goes, "You know what? The BBC should give him a job". And we were like, we looked at each other and we were like, "David Attenborough, like is, you know, the BBC's talent". She didn't realize that David Attenborough was like the, one of the main talent for the BBC because she was consuming media in different ways that we understood, so she didn't watch things on iPlayer, she didn't go through the BBC website. She was watching this through other channels. She hadn't quite connected the dots up that actually David Attenborough's TV programs were created by the BBC.

Toby Mildon: So in terms of what you're saying around that kind of understanding the user and empathy, that gave us such a really interesting insight into how she was actually consuming media. 'Cause if we approached people like her and said, "Oh yeah, you should watch the iPlayer", it probably wouldn't register for her 'cause she was consuming media in a very different way.

Natalie Pearce: Yeah. I really love that example. And I can probably build on that example with what that can look like within an organisation. So one of the projects that I worked on prior to starting The Future Kind was with ITV, it was with their technology team. So their technology team was responsible for supporting the production houses, whether that was Coronation Street or the local news and providing technology to support the work they do. So they were based in their kind of head offices around Manchester and London, and they weren't in the production houses day-to-day. So there was a disconnect between those two groups, so the production and the technology. So sometimes the technology team would be really excited about an idea or a new new process or a new technology that they could bring in. And were maybe dismayed that there wasn't the same excitement from the production houses and the production houses were sometimes a bit, feeling a bit like, we need this thing and we want this thing fixed.

Natalie Pearce: And maybe that wasn't as high on the radar of the technology team. So we were helping them do lots of research with different productions to find out what those needs are. And that really shone a light on how different the needs are, even within what to us kind of, we were like, how can a newsroom or two different productions, let's say Ant & Dec's Saturday Night Takeaway versus Coronation Street, how can it be that different? It's so different, so wildly different. And I mean, those are three examples that are quite different. You've got one, like news is a lot more high pressure. You've got, a kind of temporary show that isn't on you all year round, and then one that's there all the time and you have one team that's servicing all these different needs. So we have to find ways to constantly get feedback. And I think an organisation's the same, 'cause you've got a marketing team, a finance team, a sales, all of these people with all of these teams with different needs and then all of these individuals within different needs. So that idea of constantly listening and co-creating and evolving with those groups, I think is incredibly important and something that I think should be embedded in organisations.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. So, something that you've created is the company operating system. Why did you develop that operating system and what is it? 

Natalie Pearce: Thank you for asking about this. Yes. So we have more recently shifted towards this way of describing culture and employee experience and the work that we do. At its core, a company operating system refers to the rituals and frameworks and processes and practices that guide how a company operates on a day-to-day basis, and how its people interact with each other and interact with their customers and so on. So in a way, just like a kind of operating system within a computer manages hardware and software resources to help the user reach whatever goal they're trying to reach. A company operating system manages like the various elements that creates an organisation. So things like it's culture, it's strategy, it's structure, it's processes, it's ways of working, and it should serve as a foundation for kind of aligning employees, driving performance and essentially helping a company to reach its goals. Another way to look at it is like a blueprint. It's like a blueprint for how we operate and how we're gonna be successful.

Natalie Pearce: When we're helping a company build their company operating system, we would be looking at stuff like their purpose, their mission, their values, as well as their strategy and what that means in terms of measurable objectives. So those things kind of set the intent for that organisation. But then, we also wanna look at, okay, if that's the intent, how do we execute on that on a day-to-day and ongoing basis? So that next level would include things like core behaviors that we expect from each other, rituals around things like how we communicate, how we make decisions, giving and receiving feedback, as well as the kind of systems and processes like hiring and onboarding and all of the moments across an employee experience that are opportunities to kind of reinforce what you are and what you care about as an organisation.

Natalie Pearce: So there's lots of things that come into it, and that's why I quite like to say it's like a blueprint of your organisation. It's the foundation and the outcome is hopefully a successful strategy that you've executed on. And also, the ability to realise your desired culture. And I guess, why do we describe our work in that way? So I think that we need to elevate the conversation around culture. I think it's still seen as something that's fluffy and we believe it's something that's incredibly strategic. And in the last couple of years as we've been working more and more with clients, we realise that we actually operate between the intersection of like culture, strategy and operations. And so, a company operating system is kind of bringing all of these disciplines together and we hope it dispels the myth that culture and strategy aren't the same when actually they work very much hand in hand. So our thesis around company operating system is that it elevates both the importance and the interconnectedness of these kind of three elements of an organisation.

Toby Mildon: Have you got an example of how you've applied the operating system to an organisation and what benefits they got out of that? 

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, so I guess our approach to it always starts at the top. So it always starts at purpose, mission, value. So a clients don't necessarily come to us and say, "Hello, we want a company operating system. Can we have that please?" [chuckle] Hopefully, that we might see that change in the coming years. But people usually come to us and say, we've grown to this size and suddenly it feels harder to manage and we're seeing some growing pains and we just, we wanna get our arms around this and we wanna make sure that we're growing sustainably and in a positive way whilst kind of protecting what we believe our culture is. And we say you need a company operating system. So as I said, we would start with understanding what they're about and what they care about. So that's a purpose, mission, values, peace. We would also understand where they're at. So doing a kind of a bit of a culture assessment, or we call it as a culture scorecard to say, to understand, what does your culture look like on its best day? What does it look like when it's not working well? And kind of everything in between, what's most memorable about working here? 

Natalie Pearce: And that kind of sets the foundation and then we kind of go a level deeper and we say, "Okay, let's get really clear on your strategy and your measurable goals and objectives and look at how that influences each part of your business". And then, we would get into the kind of rituals design and the detailed design of kind of what needs to happen backstage and behind the scenes in order to deliver on that. It sounds like quite a linear process. In practice it's often not, it's quite like cyclical and we kind of, things are pulled forward and we do them in different orders depending on the client. But that tends to be the process. And we've done this across a number of different organisations now. We've done it in Fintechs and banking. We've done it in kind of AI consulting. We have done it in psychometrics and media companies in a real range.

Natalie Pearce: And what we see as some of the biggest benefits is alignment. And I think alignment is so, so, so important. Everyone being able to point to something and say, "That's the priority. That's what we're aiming for". And there's kind of a snowball effect that, that alignment enables. So better collaboration, better connectedness between teams, it kind of helps break down silos 'cause it helps people lean into the fact that all of our roles are supportive towards this kind of greater mission. And then, when we started working on the rituals as a kind of collaborative piece within the organisations, we see people start to get really proactive around wanting to help create and get involved in this, like, continue evolution of the organisation over and above their roles. So I think there's an accountability benefit and an ownership benefit and linked to that kind of a morale and motivation benefit that comes from this as well. Because what we are saying in company operating system work is we are building a company together. Let's build the company of our dreams together. And so there's so much ongoing and long-term benefit of morale and motivation towards continually creating that. So hopefully, that gives a bit of a picture of what that process looks like in practice.

Toby Mildon: That's really cool. You mentioned working with your clients on their mission and vision and purpose. And your mission is to create a world where all people get to work for kinder, fairer, and better design companies, which sounds really cool. Why did you come up with that particular mission for yourself? 

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, so when Alicia and I, my co-founder, when we started the business, we went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth on that purpose and mission. And I say that so many times because it was probably one of the most painful processes, but the two of us really connected over this idea. So our kind of wider purpose is to create a world where all people have the opportunity to do great things. And we were like, that's what really excites us, like empowering people, motivating people to be able to really live a fulfilling life and to get enjoyment and fulfillment from their work. And then, we were like, okay, that's really, really, really broad, really, really lofty. We're gonna have to get a bit more specific for our mission. And so, we reflected on the fact, well, we spend so much of our lives working and in employment.

Natalie Pearce: And so that idea of creating kinder, fairer, better design companies felt like a really great place to start in order to start living and delivering, and supporting our purpose. And I think both of us had had good experiences and bad experiences of work. And I think that the sad thing is, is that some of those bad experiences of work, they can be so damaging and have a really long-term effect on people's wellbeing, on their confidence, on their self-belief. And so, we got really excited about wanting to change that and ensure that there's more good in the world of work than bad. And we really believe that bringing more design and human led approaches into how we run and operate internally within the organisations that we are part of can have a really big and long lasting impact on that kind of mission and that wider purpose that I mentioned. So yeah, that's how we've kind of narrowed in on that. It's definitely been a process of evolution and refinement, but we've been pretty settled on this one for quite some time. [chuckle]

Toby Mildon: That's really cool. I mean, loads of companies would be agonising for a very long time to come up with their vision and mission and things like that. I did a similar exercise with my team, which was quite productive. One of the things that we did when it came to our values actually was that we brainstormed projects that didn't go well or projects that we didn't enjoy doing and also times when we felt things didn't go well or when we were not operating at our best. And then, we flipped those around and turned them into kind of more positive values. So, for example, we've got a value around engagement and that came from frustration of working with organisations that just became disengaged with us and weren't really accountable when it came to diversity and inclusion. So that's where we kind of flipped it. And now we've got values around accountability and working at pace rather than taking our time and dragging our feet and things like that. So that was a really good exercise to go through.

Toby Mildon: What do you think is the power of bringing together designers and people professionals? And what I mean by people, professionals would be heads of HR, HR business partners, occupational health colleagues, diversity and inclusion practitioners, anybody who's kind of working in an organisation on the people agenda specifically and professionally.

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, I love this question. And I think it's really important for us to acknowledge that the scope of the people profession is now so broad. And I think it is near impossible to expect one individual to cover the breadth of what's expected from a modern people team. Because you mentioned some of those yourself, but you've got things like the kind of traditional HR side, which is still very important. Legal compliance, policy, investigations, those are incredibly important. We can't forget those. They have to exist. Salary, payroll, like all of these things. So you've got that. You've then got employee experience design, which is traditionally a different type of skillset. You've got the whole engagement and facilitation side of things. So bringing people along a journey. You've got research, understanding your teams. And you've also got things like marketing, like hiring is a marketing activity, like employer brand, things like that. That's brand and marketing. So like the, that's huge. That's such a huge scope.

Natalie Pearce: So, I do think that generally we need to lean into the fact that we need multidisciplinary people teams in order to do this well. Like I didn't even mention talent acquisition there and recruitment, which is a whole skillset in itself. And that has experienced parts as well, candidate experience being so important. So yeah, I really do feel for single person or very, very small people teams of which there are so many, because I think the expectations on them are quite tricky. Very tricky I should say. But anyway, I'll go back to your question. That was my little rant there. What's the benefit of bringing designers and people professionals together? I think there's so many. I can actually share a blog I wrote on this, maybe to put in the show notes or something. But some of the top ones that come to mind are, I think that designers can bring a really unique perspective to the table.

Natalie Pearce: So understanding human behavior and being able to spot pain points and opportunities for improvement is a really great skillset. And to partner that with the kind of HR skillset as well of like what's available and what's possible and kind of coming together around that is really great. And I think HR teams can really benefit from the fact that designers are often experts in stuff like research and ideation and prototyping and testing. I've heard many, many horror stories of HR teams with the best of intentions working really, really hard on a launch of something new. And when it's been launched, it hasn't landed in the best way because of a lack of testing and that kind of iterative process. So I think that designers can really help in that.

Natalie Pearce: And I also think that there's designers are visual people. So they can take goals and needs and strategy of an organisation and create visual representations of this. And I think that's a real benefit for people teams and something, especially when we talk about stuff like employer brand and marketing, it could be a real superpower to level up and elevate the messages that people professionals are trying to land. Also, makes it easier for non-designers. So if you're thinking about senior stakeholders that have very limited time, it can help them kind of engage in the people process and the important ideas and initiatives that are being rolled out. And I guess my final point, as I said, there's so many that I can list off, but I'll try and stick to three.

Natalie Pearce: I think that designers and people people can really come together as like a superhero team around the whole attraction and retention piece. So in design, we often talk about creating delighter moments within experiences. So designers can help us identify those based on research and people teams can use this to then prioritise their efforts, which I think is really crucial given everything I've said about how stretched people teams usually are. So I think there's so much opportunity for collaboration. And I think that, okay, in some organisations they might not have budget or like scope to bring designers into their people teams. But I wonder if there's opportunities for like secondments, or maybe you can get some support from your internal designers to work a little bit on some of the things that you're doing. Like even just small pockets of that collaboration can really have a massive impact.

Toby Mildon: I really like that idea of those delighter moments in software development, or when we look at user experience, it could be those surprises that you get as an end user. So it could be like clicking on a button and the button starts sparkling or changing colors or something like that. But actually, using that design thinking in terms of the employee experience, as you were describing that, I was just thinking there's so much you could play around with for onboarding and for new joiners to delight them so that they're excited about coming to work for you. Because the onboarding experience could take weeks or sometimes months before they actually step foot inside your office. But there's so much that you could do before somebody's first day to make them feel like they're welcomed, and they're really excited to come and work for you.

Toby Mildon: So as you were describing that, my brain was wearing away. I was just thinking there's so many cool things that you could do if only you had that kind of design thinking around the table. What does inclusive growth mean for you? And in particular, when it comes to applying design or even companies operating with your operating system that you've developed? 

Natalie Pearce: I got really excited about the onboarding point you made there, but I won't take us off on a number of tangents.

[chuckle]

Toby Mildon: That could be a separate episode later on. We could do a whole different episode about onboarding and human-centered design or something like that.

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, inclusive growth and onboarding. Okay, I'm gonna hold you to this so I'll be in touch. [chuckle] What does inclusive growth mean to me? I think that for me, and kind of linked to the broader purpose of the future kind, it's a lot about promoting equality and equity of opportunity. And I think when we achieve that, that's where innovation comes from. I don't think any organisation can truly be innovative if there's groups of people that are excluded. I also think it's about growth coexisting with an effort to prioritise and protect individual well-being and the dignity of all individuals in the workplace. I've definitely experienced the exploitative nature within work, especially in consulting and when your worth is a percentage on utilisation. I think that that's the opposite of inclusive growth for me. So I think it's the idea of building companies in a way that doesn't leave anyone behind. But I really like the ideas of creating companies that last for hundreds of years and are loved for hundreds of years.

Natalie Pearce: So I think sustainability is a really important part of inclusive growth. So it's like the antithesis to growth for growth's sake or blitz scaling. It's more thoughtful and intentional while still being ambitious? 

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Natalie Pearce: And supportive of people, which I think really aligns to what we're all about at The Future Kind and our personal beliefs as founders as well. I appreciate us on a lot of different things there, but you can hopefully get an idea of the musings that I had around this question.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. But as you were describing that, I was just thinking of a couple of clients of mine. So one of my clients, they're both professional services companies actually, but one of my clients developed a business strategy, which was called the Good Growth Strategy. And it was all about making a positive impact. It was around that sustainability that you mentioned. Inclusivity was part of the strategy. It wasn't like a separate piece, but it was embedded within the Good Growth Strategy. But yeah, they developed that because they were thinking about the longer term and sustainability and inclusive impact and things like that. And then, one of my other clients, again, they're another professional services company. They're a consultancy company within the energy market. They're working on their future vision at the moment. And one of the things that they've been talking about is moving away from timesheet culture where their people are focusing on creating quality value, really making an impact for their client rather than measuring their engagement rates and things like that. So yeah, it's just as you were describing that, that was ringing in my mind.

Natalie Pearce: Yeah, I love that. I love both the Good Growth Strategy, is such a good name and also anti timesheet culture. Music to my ears. [chuckle]

Toby Mildon: Now, if the person listening to us right now, wants to learn more about the work you do, I'm thinking that maybe they're interested in a company operating system themselves and they quite like that structure that you've got. Or perhaps they're interested in the opportunities of bringing designers and people professionals together. What should they do? 

Natalie Pearce: Well, I would love for them to go and have a look at our website. So www.thefuturekind.co. On there, they could subscribe to our monthly newsletter where we share perspectives and frameworks. There's always something really actionable that you can do. We love a call to action on a framework. And we are very active on LinkedIn, so they can connect with me. I'm Natalie Pearce on LinkedIn and all the time, actually, that's just my name. And the business is also on LinkedIn and Instagram as well.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, Natalie, thanks ever so much for joining me today. It's been really great to catch up with you and I'm really interested in how we can bring together design thinking, design professionals and people professionals so that we can create these really great employee experiences. And like you say, I think we're on the same mission to create kinder, fairer and better designed companies. So I look forward to collaborating with you in the future.

Natalie Pearce: Thank you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Toby Mildon: And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. Hopefully, you've learned a lot from the conversation that I've had with Natalie today. Hopefully, you've got a practical framework that you can apply to your organisation through the company operating system. As Natalie says, if that does sound useful for your business, please do reach out to her and her team and they can help you think about how to apply that to your organisation. But also, this is a great opportunity to bring together design thinking or design professionals with your HR and people professionals to think about how we can create much more inclusive organisations and positive cultures within our organisations so that we can create kinder, fairer and better designed businesses. So until the next time, I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast, which will be coming up very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself. Bye bye.

Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.