This episode of the Inclusive Growth Show features Daniele Fiandaca, speaker, coach author and founder of Token Man.
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Intro: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I am Toby Mildon and today I'm joined by Daniele Fiandaca who is a really fascinating guest. He is the founder of Token Man and also Token Man Consulting. And today we're going to be talking about how to engage men on the topic of inclusion and diversity. This is a topic that comes up quite a lot in the work that I do with senior leaders. I think a lot of people think that diversity and inclusion is to do with those people over there at arm's length. They don't really understand that we are all diverse, and that inclusion and diversity is something that we all need to be responsible for and take accountability for. So I'm really pleased to be able to have a chat today with Daniele about his experiences. So welcome to the show. It's great to see you.
Daniele Fiandaca: Thank you. And given the work you do and your previous guest, I'm very honored to be here.
Toby Mildon: Thank you very much. Thank you. So you identify as a White, straight, cisgender man. How did you get involved in the field of inclusion and diversity?
Daniele Fiandaca: So it goes back to... So I used to work in advertising and just under 10 years ago I hosted... I used to run a group for creative directors around the world. And we had a problem with diversity full stop, but specifically you could really notice the lack of gender diversity. So the industry famously only had 13% of female creative directors. Our particular group had 26%. So we were beating the industry but I still really felt it in events. You really felt that lack of a female voice. And at the time I didn't understand terms like in-group or out-group but there was a really dominant in-group. So I hosted a dinner. I hosted a dinner for 12 women. And Creative Social was my hobby. I did it as a sideline. I was the managing partner of an advertising agency.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so when I turned up that evening for dinner, I hadn't really thought about it. I just organised it. And when I walked into the room and there was me and 12 women, that wasn't a surprise because I'd organised the dinner and had dinner funded. What was the surprise is what happened to me the minute I walked through that door, which is I lost my confidence. And for people that know me really well, I don't believe that's possible. But it really did happen and it was a real shock to the system. And then we sat down for dinner and what I felt is the conversations that had been around me really pushed me further away. And then when I got up to speak to introduce the dinner, my co-host, the wonderful Laura Jordan Bambach cut me off. And these were all things that I'd heard women talking to me about experience in the boardroom.
Daniele Fiandaca: And it's not I didn't believe them, I just didn't understand the extent of the impact of being in that out-group. And I have... You can't see this, it's recorded, but Toby can see my background and the flat I live in. I have many privileges and I understand if you type the word "privilege" into Google images, you get someone that looks like me. But one of my privileges is I didn't experience being in the out-group until I was 39. And it really opened my eyes and it really shook me and it made me realize... And there were other things happening in relation to some of the work I was doing with Hyper Island, which is some people call the digital Harvard. And it just made me realize that one, my behaviors were excluding people. Simple factors on a Tuesday morning, our senior management team was 10 men and two women.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so when I talked, when I saw Pete and started talking football where in this particular case the women weren't interested in football, I realized I was pushing them away. So I never talked about football ever again at management meeting. But also it really started... I started to really start to think about the system and I realized that if I wasn't combating the system, I was part of that system. So I'm a hacker. I wrote a book, co-authored and co-published the book six years ago called Creative Superpowers, though the superpower I owned was hacker. I like to solve problems, and what I saw in the market, I was seeing that men were not only not being invited in to talk about gender equality but often weren't welcome in the room when they were there.
Daniele Fiandaca: And if you look at history, in any majority group, minority groups have affected change without the support of the majority. And while women clearly aren't in the minority in the workplace, unfortunately they still are in positions of power. And so for me it became really clear that men needed to be part of the conversation. And as a hacker I thought, "Okay, there must be another way of us accelerating and creating change." And so I founded Token Man with three women. And Token Man was really set up initially as a brave space for men to talk openly about gender equality so they can go on their own journeys, make their own mistakes, say the wrong things and learn and become better, and ultimately become allies and agents of change, which is really how I got into it.
Toby Mildon: Excellent. I think you've touched on this already but it'd be good to explore this a bit further with you. But let's start with the why, as Simon Sinek says in his famous book. Why is it important that we are engaging men in the inclusion and diversity agenda especially when we're talking about gender equality?
Daniele Fiandaca: Yeah, I think it's probably worth saying that I don't really talk about gender equality now. I talk about, I engage women with inclusion and diversity. I have seen the damage that focusing just on gender does within organizations 'cause it can often harm those other historically marginalized groups. So I actually will talk about inclusion and diversity and engaging men with inclusion and diversity. Toby, you know in the work that we do, you just need to go into a business to understand why it's fundamental. Until we start engaging men meaningfully, we're not gonna create a change. There's a reason why we exist as organizations. We exist in organizations because organizations are broken. They're not designed for diversity. They're not in design specifically for to be inclusive for people of color, for women, for people with disabilities, for people who are neurodivergent. And until we get those men engaged so that they can help drive the change, we're just not gonna drive the change.
Daniele Fiandaca: And at the moment, I go into too many businesses where they think that... And it's happening less so now. People do tend to engage with me at Token Man Consulting when they're actually a bit more advanced. They now understand the need to engage men. They've done a lot of the work but there are still too many businesses that think that employee resource groups plus bias training is an inclusion and diversity strategy. It's not. And more worrying, and there's just still so many businesses that actually put the onus on the historically marginalized groups to do the work to create the change. That is just so broken. It's hard enough as it is for someone that's in that group. We shouldn't be then putting the onus on them to do extra work.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so for me I think it's so important that we are actually leaning on those men to step in and do the work. I think also, listen, the irony is not lost on me. I've been very successful in the last six years in building a business. You had my co-founder at Utopia on the podcast recently and I loved your conversation with her. But I think, for me, I know the impact I have as a White straight man on other White straight men. And so that kind of... I now say to male allies, "One of your primary roles is to recruit more people like you to lean in." I think often people think their job as a male ally is to be a sponsor to a woman or a mentor to someone from a historically marginalized group. And I'm like, "No, no. As an ally, you need to be part of driving that change first and foremost."
Toby Mildon: It's a very active role, isn't it?
Daniele Fiandaca: It's a really active role.
Toby Mildon: Yeah. Yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: And it's also... And I think you're probably gonna come to me about the barriers for engaging men but it's also a very challenging role. I think as men, and I've certainly experienced this firsthand, there's a lot of work that's needed to learn, unlearn and relearn.
Toby Mildon: Yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: And that can often be quite hard and quite challenging.
Toby Mildon: If that's one of the first barriers, what are some of the other barriers to engaging men in the inclusion and diversity journey?
Daniele Fiandaca: So I got interviewed by Deborah from Propeller two years ago on International Women's Day. And she told me this little story which I've actually shared quite a few times, which is a female fish swims up to two male fish and just says, "Hello chaps, how's the water?" The male fish looked at each other and goes, "Whats water?" And I think it's funny. I tell that to quite a lot of men and men go, "I don't understand it." I said, "It's because they just don't see the water, right? They don't see the exclusion." I ran a workshop the other day around combating the sexualization of women in the workplace. And we talked about some of the comments, the harassment, the little microaggressions. And when you ask men to name microaggressions that might happen every day...
Daniele Fiandaca: And again, let's be really clear on the whole of this podcast, when I say "men," I'm talking about men like me. I'm not talking about men with disabilities. I'm not talking about... I'm talking about White, straight, cisgender men. They struggle to write them down because they just don't see them. They're invisible. And so the first thing what you have to do is make the invisible visible. You have to get the in-group to understand how their behaviors impact the out-group. How those behaviors actually really do ladder up. And they ladder up. I talk about microaggression and a lot of people talk about microaggressions like paper cuts. One hurts but when you get them constantly, constantly, constantly, actually they can start becoming really damaging.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so firstly is the what I call the ignorance. It is the what people don't know. The second thing I'll talk about, and this is what men tell me, so whether you think it's right or wrong, it's the reality of it. And that's why I kind of talk about... I talk about Brave Spaces because someone rightly flagged up that safe spaces have been needed and I think that some people find it hard when I talk about the need for a safe space for White straight men. You're like, "Whoa, whoa." They're not in danger but actually the reality is a lot of the men that I talk to do find that leaning into this and having those conversations are dangerous for them. They are scared about saying the wrong thing. They are scared of being cancelled for saying the wrong thing. So we have created an environment where it's actually can be quite scary for those people that don't have the information.
Daniele Fiandaca: And one of the books that... I've created a number of books but one of the books that I kind of contributed to was The Best Piece Of Advice Ever. And the best piece of advice I put into that book was, "It's better to be wrong and interesting than right and boring." And I still hold that. Sometimes being wrong and interesting... Gotta be really careful with that statement now 'cause being wrong and interesting in the wrong environment can actually lead to damage to people; saying the wrong thing which sometimes can be very hurtful to people. So for me you have to be conscious of that but the most learning I've done is by being wrong. Because if you internalise those voices of what you're thinking, those wrong thoughts, unless you share them, no one's gonna be able to pick up, challenge you or give you a different perspective. Okay?
Daniele Fiandaca: So I think firstly is, how do we create those brave spaces? Secondly, and I'm sure Toby, you talk about this with your clients, a lot of inclusion in creating inclusive workplaces is people becoming more comfortable with being uncomfortable. The challenge you've got with the in-group is someone like me. As I said, I have many privileges. One of the privileges I have, so I spent most of my career being comfortable. I'm not used to having uncomfortable... I am now but until I went into this space, I just wasn't used to having uncomfortable conversations.
Daniele Fiandaca: So often what we find is the men, even when we've filled in that gap, they still don't have the resilience. And people find it... "How can you talk about resilience for straight White men?" We all have resilience issues and actually they often don't have the resilience to cope with that uncomfortableness. And actually, at the moment, unfortunately when I have seen men leaning in trying to have those uncomfortable conversations, and when they find it too difficult or too challenging for them, they go, "Okay, I'm just gonna go back to where I was before."
Toby Mildon: Yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: Because actually, right now, they're allowed to. In many organisations, we don't have that. I don't think we've got to the stage with many organisations where we have the accountability where men who don't lean into inclusion and diversity aren't being penalised for that. And until that happens, I don't think we're gonna get the real sea change that we need within business.
Toby Mildon: I really like the point around brave spaces. It's something that I come up with really regularly. So whenever I do my... I do a regular webinar around being a catalyst for change in your organization. I do lots of workshops around inclusive leadership, and I always ask people, "What is getting in your way in terms of driving change?", and fear is the number one reason that comes up. People are afraid of saying the wrong thing. They're afraid of causing offense. They're afraid of getting things wrong. There's a really interesting statistic in the RightTrack survey which was in 2021, they said that 55% of people are too scared to talk about diversity and inclusion in the workplace, for saying the wrong thing. So that's quite a high number.
Daniele Fiandaca: And I think in terms of Brave Space, I think in terms of the term, I gotta give him a shoutout. So I actually I've given that as a suggestion from Joshua Weinstein deaf spot, who actually is the... He runs the Deaf Spot, so I've got to give him a callout 'cause I've started to use it and actually I think it's a really nice way of talking about it, and having those spaces I think is so important.
Toby Mildon: I'm gonna start using that as well. I think it's really good to say that we're creating these brave spaces because whenever I do inclusive leadership training, one of the things that we talk about is being a daring leader. So being able to put your head above the parapet, being able to challenge the status quo, being able to have those difficult, awkward conversations and not shy away from them, it's a really important trait of a leader.
Daniele Fiandaca: Yeah.
Webinar Promo: If your company has a great diversity and inclusion strategy, if your organization has an amazing work culture where productivity is peaking, if the best talent in your industry are working for you, if all your employees are happy and feel included, then feel free to skip this message for about 30 seconds and continue listening to the podcast interview with Toby. But if you feel that your company is lacking in any one of these areas, your employer reputation is taking a hit. Toby Mildon is one of the UK's lead in diversity and inclusion experts who has helped top companies like Deloitte, the BBC, Sony pitchers and Centrica, as well as numerous scale up businesses who want an outstanding inclusive culture. To go further in your diversity and inclusion journey, log on to Toby's webinar @www.mildon.co.uk/free-webinar to accelerate your company's diversity and inclusion strategy in 40 minutes. Thanks for listening. And now back to the podcast interview with Toby.
Toby Mildon: One of the things that you are interested in exploring is around masculinity, so I'm keen to kind of pick your brains about that. How do you think masculinity needs to evolve?
Daniele Fiandaca: My God, we don't have enough time.
Toby Mildon: Very big question, I know.
Daniele Fiandaca: It's a very big question. And I think the first thing I would probably say is that masculinity came into the work I did about five years ago when I started to realise that my wife... I picked up a book that actually my wife bought me and it talked about her only seeing my vulnerable side when my brother passed away in 2011, and it started to make me really start to think about... I was struggling to engage with men but I was also not even thinking about the negative impact the patriarchy has on men.
Daniele Fiandaca: And if I'm not thinking about the audience I want to speak to and understanding the journeys they need to go on and how that will benefit them, how can I expect to get them to come in and pull in others? So that's when I really started to think about masculinity and the aspects of it. Apart from explaining it, I never will use the term "toxic masculinity." I know what a barrier it creates. If a man hear toxic masculinity, actually they hear that masculinity is toxic, which is just not true. There are elements of masculinity that are extremely toxic. And so for me it's understanding those and understanding what a more positive, tender form of masculinity is.
Daniele Fiandaca: I think the first thing to talk about is feelings. I think Bell Hooks' book The Will to Change is absolutely fantastic. It was probably the first book where I really... I'm a feminist but I heard a female feminist really talking about men and just showing a real empathy for men, which I think is so important in this journey. And she talked about men becoming disconnected with their feelings, and there's absolutely no doubt that that's true; that many, many, many men struggle because they've become disconnected with their feelings.
Daniele Fiandaca: So next week I'm going to Josh Connolly and Rob Smith's; they do something called Uncommon Man London. It is a brilliant, brilliant session in Liverpool Street. So if anyone's London based, I recommend it. It's the first Tuesday of every month. And they bring together about 30 to 35 men. And the first time I ever went, he just put the feelings wheel up on the wall and just asked people to introduce themselves and actually talk about... Pull out one of the words from the feelings wheel about how they're feeling. And then he gets some people to sit down... And I now use this in my work so I've kind of stolen it and I get... You then get them to sit in... We sit in three people and we talk about those feelings. And the people listening, their job is just to listen and to empathise and not to fix.
Toby Mildon: Yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: And it's so, so powerful. I use it in the Token Man Brain Trust every time we get together. And the men, the senior leaders just come back and go, "I know more in that 15 minutes. I feel that I've spoken more openly and connected more than people I've worked with for three years."
Toby Mildon: Wow.
Daniele Fiandaca: Yeah. It is so powerful. And then he does breath work and that breath work is really powerful, especially the first time I went there was 30 men in tears. And just feeling that and seeing that and experiencing 30 men expressing their emotions is such a powerful thing. And it really, for me, it just shows you where masculinity can go. It shows you that men can express their feelings if they're given the opportunity to, and actually how important it is. I actually did... It's probably still on catch up if anyone wants to have a look at my Vimeo, the Token Man Vimeo channel.
Daniele Fiandaca: But the fathers in the workplace, we did by being fathers in the workplace. And they're hearing those panelists really talking about... Sir Elliot, Phil and Matt talking about what's important to them as fathers and actually really challenging people's perceptions, talking about what success is and what success isn't. I think really for me, it starts to show a different path to what masculinity can be. And part of that is embracing what I'd call historical feminine energy. And yes, I'd love not to put any kind of description on it but we do need to understand that actually, masculinity does need vulnerability. It does need empathy. It does need tenderness. And these things are really, really important.
Toby Mildon: So if we can lean into more vulnerability and empathy for men within the workplace, what advantages or benefits are we seeing?
Daniele Fiandaca: Trust. I mean, I'll go on the vulnerability one, it's just trust. So we know there's a spiral. The more open you are, the more trust you create. And I know the story. I've been on stages and spoken about my brother and the impact that his death has had on me. And if I'm on a stage and I'm telling the stories, I usually tell it, it often involves tears. And I'm being extremely vulnerable at that point. I don't particularly look forward to it but the reason I do it is because I know how many people come up to me afterwards and say, "Thank you." Thank you because through my vulnerability, I'm giving them permission to open up and start talking about things they wouldn't normally talk about.
Daniele Fiandaca: And when we talk about inclusion, we know one of the biggest challenges that people have is anyone, for many historically marginalized group, all women, non-binary people, one of the challenges they have is they're actually scared to voice some of the things they experience. As a leader if you show that vulnerability on the challenges you are having, you're much more likely that someone from that group is gonna have the confidence to then start sharing with you what they're experiencing.
Toby Mildon: Absolutely.
Daniele Fiandaca: And then once they share it, you can make change. 'Cause often without that information and without the cultural intelligence which, let's be really clear, leaders should be building but they can't always know everything, is you're not necessarily gonna have the ability to make that change. So I think vulnerability is really key but... And I've talked to and again, we are talking generalisations. Let's be really clear, there are lots of men who can be vulnerable and there's a lot of women that can't be vulnerable. If I look generally what I hear from women is that they're more than comfortable being vulnerable with their friends but they're not comfortable with the men in the workplace 'cause of the judgment.
Daniele Fiandaca: In fact in our Masculinity in the Workplace research two years ago, I think it was 48% of mid to junior women said it was dangerous to be vulnerable in the workplace. If I speak to men, they'll say, "Forget other men about being vulnerable in the workplace. I can't be vulnerable with my friends." Or even worse still, some will say, "I can't be vulnerable with my wife." So you've got a huge... You've got a much bigger gap when it comes to the journey that men need to come to especially around vulnerability and to a certain extent empathy as well. It was best encapsulated with the CEO that I work with. He said to me six months ago, "Daniele, you've gotta understand that for the first time in my career, I'm not just being asked to be different at work, I'm also being asked to be different at home."
Toby Mildon: Wow. So how are you helping businesses engage with men and also how are you engaging senior leaders on this? What are you finding works particularly well?
Daniele Fiandaca: So I fundamentally do two things. The first one is... And again I think it's really important to start at the top. Change only happens at the top. So I run inclusive leadership programs for senior leadership teams. That's for leaders that identify as women, leaders that identify as men, and leaders that identify as non-binary. I specifically tend to work with a leadership team that might be C-suite or that might be a team internally and I'll deliver a nine-month inclusive leadership program.
Toby Mildon: Yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so in that particular program, we are training them to become inclusive leaders as well as an inclusive leadership team to actually drive change. The other side is I really support companies in coming up with better strategies with engagement. So we've developed a really simple framework. It was funny how a framework only seems simple once you've actually developed it and it's actually working. But it's basically, what I think historically people have done is just the recruit phase which is the third phase, which is recruit people to become better allies and agents of change. And what we're starting to see is just by going to recruit, we're seeing pushback. We're seeing people go. But do you know what? They're not engaging. We know from our data in our Masculinity in the Workplace '22 research, 48% of the male respondents said that they felt they were being forced to get involved with an inclusion and diversity when it wasn't relevant to them.
Toby Mildon: Yeah, yeah.
Daniele Fiandaca: So the first thing we've got to do is support. We have to do more work in supporting men with the challenges they are currently facing. Saying it's not relevant to them, firstly, is nonsense because the future of the workplace is inclusive. That change has happened. It will happen at some point. I personally believe if we get this right, if you're not an inclusive leader, you're just not a leader in five years time. So it should be relevant to everyone. But also it should be relevant... We can't say inclusion is for everyone and then exclude men. And again I'm talking about White straight men. 'Cause that is what's been happening. So we do have to start supporting men as fathers. We do have to support men in terms of their mental health. I was just talking to Max Dickins around a new Token Man panel series around friendship and support networks because it's so important and more organizations are starting to understand more for those support networks.
Daniele Fiandaca: The second thing we need to do is inspire them. So we've already talked about this. But men, a lot of men don't currently have the skills to be vulnerable, empathetic. They don't have the cultural intelligence. They're not comfortable with the uncomfortable. So ultimately what I work with clients both in developing the strategy but also in implementing the strategy, is making sure that in their overall I & D strategy, they have a very clear men engagement strategy, and that men engagement strategy has an equal kind of... It has a third on supporting, a third on inspiring, and a third on recruiting.
Toby Mildon: Absolutely. So obviously you founded Token Man and also Token Man Consulting. What are your hopes for the future for your organization?
Daniele Fiandaca: Token Man, so just so people understand the distinction, Token Man is predominantly my platform for driving change but everything I do under Token Man is free. Token Man Consulting, I drive change but get paid for it. So obviously Token Man Consulting allows me to do the work I'm doing in Token Man. And so for me, let me focus on Token Man. What I kind of found, and a lot of people will just say, "Yeah, totally see that," is what we find is that generally men do not prioritize this work. They don't actually prioritize training full stop unless they see a direct correlation to their career. Okay, we need to change that but right now, that's the environment we sit within. So if we're gonna engage those men, and when I say "engage those men," I mean a constant... We've got to start really accepting that we need... This journey is a continuous journey. We need to constantly learn, unlearn and relearn.
Daniele Fiandaca: And so in order to engage those men, what we need to do is make sure that they trust... Anything they see is they fully trust it. And what I want Token Man to become, 'cause everything we do within Token Man is free, is fully accessible; we developed a Token Man panel series that runs five or six panels a year, totally free; is I want Token Man to become that kind of seal of approval that you know that if you're gonna spend that time, this is gonna be time well spent. I'm really proud our Being a Father in the Workplace panel got an average feedback score of 9.4 out of 10. That's unheard of for a panel.
Daniele Fiandaca: So I think for me, I want to be able to... Anyone can go. Do you know what? I need support... Coming back to that organisation, I am making sure the series is doing exactly what? And I'm preaching; I'm preaching what I'm talking about with our clients. So it needs to support men, it needs to inspire men, and it needs to recruit men. And that's how we're curating at the moment. So that's really, but ultimately to your question, I want to drive change. I want to create workplaces that are truly inclusive, and diverse.
Toby Mildon: If we were to fast-forward let's say 20 years from now, and you walk into the most inclusive organisation on the planet, what does that look like for you?
Daniele Fiandaca: It is really hard to say. Visually it looks different because we know, for example, let's talk about disability. 85% of disabilities are invisible. So often you can't see that. So I think for me I want to be able to speak to people and I want to say, "Is there an in-group?" And I want the answer to be "No." Nadia spoke to you recently. As my co-founder on Utopia, we did the Great British Diversity experiment. And what was great about the Great British Diversity experiment back in 2018 is that people in the room... Oh my God, it had been more than 2000. I think it was 2016. The people in the room that were in their groups, they didn't feel that it was an in-group. And so for me the answer is having workplaces where there's an absence of an in-group so that people can actually be their full authentic selves and don't feel they have to represent who they are. They can just be authentically who they are.
Toby Mildon: Cool. So here's the question that I ask everybody when they come on the show. What does inclusive growth mean for you?
Daniele Fiandaca: I think I'll go back to that quote I keep on talking about by Alvin Toffler that said, "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who can't read and write, it will be those that can't learn, unlearn and relearn." Inclusive growth for me is recognising we're on a journey and we need to continuously learn, unlearn and relearn. That's from a cultural intelligence level. Learning much more about our fellow human beings, the people we work with, what drives them, really going under the skin of culture and understanding what sits behind that. What are their beliefs? What are their behaviors? What support can we give them? It's naturally thinking about adjustments. How can we make sure things are accessible for all? So for me inclusive growth is having that kind of inclusive growth mindset, which is always learning, always being curious, always working out how we can be better, and actually thinking about how we can make sure that everyone in our teams can perform to their best.
Toby Mildon: Fantastic. Now, if the person listening to us right now wants to follow your work, maybe they wanna get in touch with you and ask you some questions or they wanna get involved in Token Man or come along to one of your panel events, how should they do that?
Daniele Fiandaca: First thing to do is just LinkedIn with me, say hi, give me some context. I'll love to hear that you've heard this and you'll come off the back of this. I think otherwise do go to tokenman.org. You'll see right at the top page, you'll see the link to the Token Man Panel Series. The Token Man Panel Series is, my plan is for it to always have three or four panels live at any one time. So there's so much content. And actually I've got, assuming everything goes well, I've got at least three other initiatives that are coming up over the next 12 months that will really help support men, inspire men, and recruit more men to become better allies and agents of change.
Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, Daniele, thank you ever so much for joining me on today's episode. It's been really fascinating to have a chat with you.
Daniele Fiandaca: It's been amazing. Thank you so much, Toby. And I hope that we get to work together at some point in the future.
Toby Mildon: I hope so too. We are definitely on the same page when it comes to developing inclusive leaders so I think there's definitely an opportunity for us to collaborate.
Daniele Fiandaca: Fantastic. Thank you, Toby. Have a great day.
Toby Mildon: You're welcome. Thank you. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast today with Daniele and myself. And hopefully you've taken away some really practical advice on how we can better engage men on the inclusion and diversity journey, what are some of the barriers that we can look out for, how we can really support men around masculinity as well, and also build more inclusive and thriving workplaces. So thanks for tuning into this episode, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode which will be coming up very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself.
Outro: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.