Inclusive Growth Show

InChorus: Data and Tech Combine to Drive Culture Change

May 09, 2023 Toby Mildon Episode 101
Inclusive Growth Show
InChorus: Data and Tech Combine to Drive Culture Change
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I spoke with Rosie Turner and Raj Ramanandi co-founders of InChorus, a Speak Up platform that amplifies employee voice. Our discussion ranged from simplifying data and focusing on insights that can drive the right decision-making to engaging managers in culture change.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon, and today I'm joined by Rosie and Raj again so it's not very often we get repeat guests, but Rosie and Raj have appeared on the podcast twice now. But the thing is, we always have really interesting conversations about the technology that they've developed and all of the knowledge that they've I suppose gathered to develop their solution as well. It's always moving and shifting and changing, so there's always plenty to catch up with Rosie and Raj on. But before we get into that, because I'm aware that this might be the first time that you've listened to this podcast, it'll be probably good to just reintroduce Rosie and Raj, so Rosie and Raj welcome. Would you mind just reintroducing yourselves and letting us know a bit more about what company you work for and what you do? 

Raj: Hi, David yes, so I'm Raj Ramanandi, the co-founder of InChorus. We are a essentially a tech company we've been going for maybe four years now. Think the reason we started speaking early on was kind of the core focus of our work was zooming in on the area of microaggressions, which I know that you have a keen interest in as well. That still remains a core kind of USP of our platform but we've stretched, I guess slightly the area of our focus and I guess and you're hinting at the fact that we are always developing and we are always learning more, learning more from our client base and trying to understand how we can support them better.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant, thanks Raj and Rosie, how about yourself? 

Rosie: Yeah, hi lovely to be here again. I was actually thinking, this is our third podcast table.

Toby Mildon: It's our third one, yeah.

Rosie: It's becoming a recurrent. Yeah, it's really great to be here. My name's Rosie Turner. I'm co-founder of InChorus alongside Raj. I think Raj has summarized that nicely, but really, bringing a background in HR tech and diversity and inclusion and really thinking about how technology and innovation is helping to push that forward has been our focus over the last five plus years now.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant, so I'm aware that the main people that you work with are chief people officers and that's going to be the basis of our conversation today. And, I work with chief people officers as well and that they've got a lot on their plate at the moment. What are you noticing? Where are chief people officers currently at, would you say? What's going on for them? 

Raj: I think that's always a stressful job and I think you probably see the same thing, Toby. It's kind of many layers to it, but we're at a time now and fairly obvious reasons. Why but, it was a function and a role that took the brunt of the lockdown, COVID and hybrid impacts and kinda of I dunno whether we'll roll into this, but it was certainly an area that expanded as a consequence of those global events. That's definitely one of the new aspects of the role that is leading to a bit of a, I guess a very stressful time for CPOs. And then one of the thing that's fairly well documented now is that they're also dealing with probably the most diverse workforce in a long time and I don't mean that in the traditional senses that we speak about, but particularly in relation to the generations in the workforce and their different expectations of work. There's been a lot of great work around the boomers and the Zoomers being in the same workplace and having very different expectations and that places a fair amount of pressure on CPO.

Raj: It's also been again, very well documented, not just in research circles, but in the news. This idea that work should have more meaning and in the past where work was something that you did separate from where you found joy or pleasure or meaning, there's a perception, and this is probably from the younger generations in the workplace that work ought to... Work can and ought to deliver some more of that and that's absolutely applying pressure. And then the final one is economic pressure that the economy's under and so that's obviously in the stretch of resource, the mass layoffs that we're seeing that have already kicked off in the tech industry. We're seeing in professional services now and I think will roll through other industries and these are all major pressures falling at the feet of CPOs.

Toby Mildon: A lot of what you've said is what I'm hearing from the chief people officers I work with. Rosie, what have you been your observations recently? What are chief people officers grappling with at the moment? 

Rosie: I think, I would probably mirror a lot of Raj's, but we definitely, I would say most recently there is this urgency around efficiency everywhere. Particularly I guess in the tech space, perhaps we're seeing the huge layoffs, the great periods of efficiency. And with that there is this combined pressure to essentially do more with less and that's something that's coming through all the time as Raj was saying, there are these increased expectations around what the world of work should be able to deliver, how we look after people, how we listen to people. But simultaneously we're expecting people officers, HR officers to do that with essentially less budget, less perhaps board attention. And so there's definitely that tension, I think that seems to be coming through from a lot of the people leaders that we're speaking to.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely, so one of my favorite coaching questions when I work with my clients is if I could come in and wave my magic wand and fix whatever it is that needs fixing, so obviously the line of work that I do is diversity and inclusion. So, if I came in and fixed my magic wand and you suddenly had the most diverse workforce you've ever had or the most inclusive culture that you've ever had, what would that look like if both of you had a magic wand and you could use it with your clients. Well, what does Utopia look like for the people that you work with? 

Rosie: It's a great question, and I think, there's the obvious caveat in that it looks so different for, I think, every organization that we're probably speaking to, in different sectors, but there are definitely strong trends and patterns. I think, on the one side we are definitely seeing a need to create really, really strong employee experiences, whilst not completely overwhelming and bombarding people. So there's definitely a tension there that we see I think employee voice is very important people understand that, I think, again, particularly some of those younger generations perhaps that Raj mentioned those, there's a real expectation that I will be able to share my opinion kind of be heard within the organization, particularly, perhaps around a wider range of topics than before, it's not just, well, I feel overworked.

Rosie: It's also how do I perceive our cultural values? What is our stance? How is the company responding to Black Lives Matter or whatever it might be. So I think there's definitely a real push for having those kind of nuanced channels in place. But I guess the Utopia is to have a variety of nuanced channels whilst also not having 50 separate tools that are complicated to use and are bombarded, and people don't understand where to go. So I think there's a definite need there for kind of careful aggregation of different ways to speak up about issues, and ways to gather employee opinion. And that then is, I guess, mirrored from the people leader, or the HR leader's perspective, and that what we typically see today is there can be engagement tools for this. Then there's a... Perhaps a whistleblowing solution or a grievance process. There's a survey that goes out, there's a separate exit interview, and actually there's this huge kinds of array of data points and insight that then it's very difficult to aggregate, assimilate, actually extract that insight from. And I guess again, when we talk to people and really look at kind of what the ideal would be there, it's often around almost, again, being able to do more with a bit less. So how do we kind of pull that together and extract insight from it in a useful way? 

Rosie: And so, we look a lot at how as a single platform can we aggregate these different datasets in a way that is really focused on action and being useful for people teams. And then I guess kind of finally with that is, is around closing the loop. So, again, we often see that people leaders are very overstretched. And how do you actually then when you find a problem or you find a piece of data that points to something, how do you streamline and make it much quicker to get feedback to the organization? A targeted action kind of shared perhaps with managers or who it might be. And again at the moment that often has to go through multiple different groups of people. But I think the ideal is that, that can be stitched up a lot more effectively and quickly using automation and technology. And that's again something that we've been leaning into as a result.

Toby Mildon: That's brilliant, thank you. And Raj, how about, what would happen with your magic wand? 

Raj: I think Rosie gets the crux of kind of perhaps on a kind of quite macro level what a CPA might be seeking. When we are working with CPAs that are kind of stretched, they're... We're stressing the word value to them, and where are they extracting value in their current setup, which might be too expensive or not as effective as they might want it to be. So thinking about, we've spoken a fair bit about data, but I feel like that kind of 2010 problem of not having enough data is a bit dated for lack of a better word. And what we now have is probably an abundance of data, too much data, data all over the place that it now needs to be a simplification of that data, oftentimes disparate data creates more complex data.

Raj: Let's use the example of engagement surveys where there are many survey technologies out there kind of battling it out for market share. And the way they're doing that is by more and more complexity when it really isn't, it really isn't necessary, a survey is a survey, and I think that that's something that we have to hone to our clients is that you don't need to... We sometimes see how much our clients are spending on survey technology, and it's phenomenal and then you look at the action that's taken off the data coming from the survey and it... There's research based around just how, that survey data is very rarely used and so why spend that money? So it's kind of value that you're getting from the data and not just one example of the data. Another area that we're talking about, CPOs trying to seek as much value as possible is their tech stack.

Raj: So we... I talked earlier about lockdown, and then the move into hybrid. As part of that, we've seen an awful lot of technology creep into the workplace, a lot of which has been vital to continuing BAU, Business As Usual. But I do think that what we're now seeing is essentially, from an employee perspective, tool fatigue. Which is... And I think Rosie hinted and that is where, you're going to too many different places, for too many disparate functions, too many separate functions when actually we need to aggregate some of that. And I think seeking value from the tools that you're using is something that we're really trying to drive home. Again, I'll talk about surveys, but you kind of have onboarding tools, survey tools, wellbeing tools, and five wellbeing tools. Yeah, it really isn't a... It's really been overdone in some organizations, and I think particularly in this economic climate, and stripping back on some of that and ensuring you're getting value from there is really important. And I may be treading on a topic that we're going to talk a bit a little bit about later, but kind of looking at the greater demand for kind of purpose at work. We've seen perhaps a misalignment between organizations, employees, about how you fill that, fill that gap of purpose, and I think that we've just thrown purpose at that problem in the past so really as I was saying.

Raj: Again, the value. We get better performance from employees when we're, when they are, when their wellbeing is looked after, when they feel connected and engaged with their work and they feel that their values align with their organization. And I don't think a fruit box or subscription to the FT is going to drive any of those, whereas you may get drive that value from team away days, or you may gain that value from creating psychological safety, from having appropriate mechanisms in place to share your opinions. So yeah, it's really, yeah the value come to the half of this, but those are three kind pillars that we're often bringing up with the CPOs when they get on the call with us.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely, those are now three really important pillars and I like what you were saying about the need to consolidate and simplify things as well. Like you say, I think there's an abundance of data and, when I talk to my own clients, they've got in some instances they've got data coming out of their ears. They've got engagement survey data, they've got pulse survey data, they've got data from exit interviews. They'll then do a diversity and inclusion survey data with me, and then they've got loads of data just coming out of their HR management information system that is part of business as usual. So I think there's definitely a need to consolidate and simplify things because a lot of my clients say, it'd be really great to have all of this data in one place so that we can make the right decisions because, you know, on one hand we want to collect diversity demographic data, but then we want to overlay that on things like who's getting promoted or who's not getting promoted, at what speed are different people getting promoted throughout the organization. So they want to kind of overlay that data on top of their existing talent management process. So what's your advice for a chief people officer in terms of trying to consolidate and simplify things so that they're making life easier for themselves? 

Raj: I guess the kind of the top tips if you like or kind of, and whether it's being forced on CPOs or not, they may be having to I guess the answer is take stock is run that audit on where you're driving value. And that may, that pressure may be coming from you from the perspective of just seeing your organization you know, schisms or splinters or disengagement. And that may be forced upon you or kind of bottom up if you like, or it may be forced on. You kind of top down with the economic pressures that companies are under. So, all of these tools and apps all come at a cost and so that exercise of taking stock is an I guess an area where, not all the time, but oftentimes we are in the mix with people in HR teams understanding where they're getting value from their current stack and how they can aggregate some of those things.

Raj: And I guess that's a key area where we as a platform, if you like, have slightly crept because we realize that ultimately we have a mechanism that is always on for employees to push or pull data from the organization. A key, essentially a key comms layer for the people team. It's assessing whether you need the bells and whistles from a certain, certain tool and paying for it. And then, and then stripping away those that you don't and focusing only on the amount of data or amount of tools you need to take action if you've got bandwidth to take action. So I think, it's an audit exercise. It's being frank and open about what's doable right now in the current climate. And something that I feel certainly in our experience it's changing slowly, but hasn't happened in the past, is looking at and sharing your challenges with other leaders facing similar problems. And that's something that I guess, as providers like yourself or us are able to afford is, you know, kind of the experience that we see from other anonymously, obviously other organizations and allowing them to learn from those people. So I think it's about, yeah, kind of being open and having those discussions and yeah we enjoy those because it helps us, calibrate some of our thinking. But it's certainly helpful for a very stressed out CPO and people team.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely, I think that that benchmarking that you touched on is really useful. I often get asked by clients when I'm presenting back diversity inclusion survey results to them, how they compare to other organizations. And most of the time I'm like you know what you're all in the same boat. It might feel like you are on your own uphill struggle here, but actually you are not alone. And I think that can be quite comforting to some of my clients that they know that there are other heads of HR or other organizations that are facing the same challenges. So, Rosie, I know one of the things that you are quite keen to explore is that the focus on insights and automation rather gathering more data, which is what Raj was talking about just now. What's your kind of thoughts on that? 

Rosie: Sure, yeah I think Raj definitely makes the point clearly before in that collecting data for data's sake is pointless. I actually think we often see it a really a kind of road employee trust over time. If you are asking questions, getting people to take their time to fill in surveys or to share experiences with you and then not feeding it back effectively to the organization with an action that's being taken, people just over time feel that it's going into a void and that it's pointless and they end up feeling I think more unheard than if you just never asked the question in the first place. So that's something that we stress time and time and again is I guess this point of you really have to be thinking about the only reason why you are asking this question is so that you can do something about it.

Rosie: So really trying to stress to people that that's only half of the equation at any one point, getting the data and you have to close that loop in which case, it kind of begs the question then of knowing that so many of the people leaders that we speak to and I think, are just across all industries have limitations when it comes to resource. It really begs the question of like, okay, well how much can we do here? And then it comes to looking at how we can work smarter, not harder. And so from our perspective, we are able to see time and time again, where there are likely to be perhaps common trends in the data, perhaps around, specific behaviors or specific challenges. There are then often common interventions or actions that an organization will want to take. So, for example, if we're seeing time and time again that's, let's say, women are feeling consistently spoken over in meetings, they feel that their ideas aren't given credit, there's a lot that can be done just around how to run inclusive meetings. And, that's quite simple. It's well documented, and it's a very clear action that an organization can take with minimal cost. But it sees the data point, it takes the intervention, and feeds it back to the organization. We can use our technology to do that now essentially. And that in term, is really enabling organizations to do more with less.

Rosie: So for example, if rather than a people team leader having to ask the question, get that data, analyze it themselves, and then go out and take that intervention, we can now, through the platform, see the spike, offer the recommendation, and send it to perhaps the appropriate manager of the team where we saw the problem. And as you can see, that's really balancing then. Yeah, the kind of need for only taking insight that you are gonna do something with and making it much quicker and slicker for people leaders to do that. And I think that's something that organizations can start to use really powerfully to just, I guess, yeah, ultimately, for me, it comes back to reducing the chance of just eroding employee trust by not taking action. I think that has to be avoided.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, definitely. I've seen that myself where organizations in the surveys that I do with my clients, like quite often the theme that comes out is, Why are we even doing this survey? Because in the past we've done surveys and the management team hasn't listened or they haven't taken action based on the feedback that's been given. And like you say, that just erodes that confidence in employees because they're like, Why bother? What's the point of sharing? Raj, I think you touched on this a bit earlier in our conversation. Why do you think it's important that we're focusing on purpose nowadays rather than the perks? 

Raj: I think that, there's lots of research looking at how you drive better performance from teams and employees. And it time and time again shows a better culture, greater safety. That everything that encapsulates finding purpose at work is more and more important. And it feels like the old way of plugging that problem, which is kind of those perks is no longer fit for purpose. I used the example earlier of fruit boxes, and it sounds funny, but we all remember those when they came into the office and I don't know how much rate or connection with our colleagues we felt as a consequence. There's a few things that we are trying to do. So let's make this slightly more InChorus' focus, there's a few things that we're trying to do to tackle this challenge.

Raj: We've taken a much more team centric approach to how our technology works. When people are running their surveys, so the organizations are running their surveys, they're really under no illusions that they have this monoculture across the company. Every division function, office geography has different culture. And so that's one of the things that we focus on within of course technologies having zeroing in on the team and understanding better what the challenges are within that team. One of the key things that we're focusing on there are yeah, how do we drive that purpose, I.e what is the culture like, and how is that affecting the individuals within it? The key point, again, from the technology perspective, is that we are now empowering culture change not at a kinda macro level, but at team level. So again, being more effective with less data, but the right data, is critical.

Raj: So we are able to automate, if we're seeing signals from a particular team that wellbeing is low, we can push in content, for example, saying, pushing in the policy for examples like, do you know that you are able to have this flexi work? Or are you aware that we have these counseling opportunities available across the organization? So we are working at a very kind of team level to focus on driving better culture so that individuals feel that, on a values and being in an environment where they are valued and that they can fulfill their... And I was trying not to use the word purpose, but kind of fulfill their purpose at work is far more easier. I think what I'm ultimately saying is that this research that's been there that has really hasn't manifested in the workplace well enough in our opinion, is something that we've really doubled down on and able to actually, by stripping away layers of technology and data, do something that companies haven't been able to do in the past.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant.

Speaker 5: If your company has a great diversity and inclusion strategy, if your organization has an amazing work culture where productivity is peaking, if the best talent in your industry are working for you, if all your employees are happy and feel included, then feel free to skip this message for about 30 seconds to continue listening to the podcast interview with Toby. But if you feel that your company is lacking in any one of these areas, your employer reputation is taking a hit. Toby Mildon is one of the UK's leading diversity and inclusion experts who has helped top companies like Deloitte, the BBC, Sony Pictures, and Centrica, as well as numerous scale of businesses who want an outstanding inclusive culture. To go further in your diversity and inclusion journey, log on to Toby's webinar at www.mildon.co.uk/free-webinar to accelerate your company's diversity and inclusion strategy in 40 minutes. Thanks for listening. And now back to the podcast interview with Toby.

Toby Mildon: Rosie, how does a chief people officer bring managers on a journey with them? I know when I talk to my clients often the chief people officer and the senior leadership team, they understand the important nature of culture. They understand the importance of diversity and inclusion. So they're putting the strategy together. They're going out and gathering this feedback by doing surveys or using Speak Up tools like the one that you've got. But I suppose the sticking point for a lot of my clients is that middle management layer and getting them engaged and help... Asking them for the help because... And I think when I talk to those middle managers, they're feeling squeezed because they're feeling the pressure from the top of the business. They're feeling the pressure and the expectations rising from the bottom of the business. So what's your experience been and what's your advice on how Chief People Officers engage this important management layer? 

Rosie: Yeah, it's a great question and we really see the same, it's often a common pain point I think of how you work with that critical, critical layer. Because again, it's one thing having a tool or an initiative sold into the organization, but so much of the success and actually then depends on the managers either to kind of get the message out or to be part of taking those actions. I think through our experience, there's a couple of key things. One is there's definitely a piece around avoiding defensiveness around this topic. So I think sometimes as soon as we talk about culture or diversity, it can feel like a defensive topic for people. People can feel that they're gonna suddenly... There's gonna be a blame game.

Rosie: And I think there's definitely a really important piece around the framing of why this work is being done and getting managers on board as early as possible so that they don't feel that this is something that they're being told to do and it's kind of happening to them. But that actually this is a shared challenge and that managers have a vital role to play as part of the team of people that need to do this work. So I think there's definitely an initial piece of messaging that we often work quite closely with our clients on to understand how are we going to present this and how do we get managers on board through stakeholder workshops early on. How do we identify key champions that's almost like ambassadors across the business.

Rosie: I think there's also a piece too, which is just actually baked into the design of our platform, which is very much around the way that our Speak Up tools often work, is we are very much looking at that kind of trend or pattern data, and we try not to kind of introduce this idea of blame, because I think as soon as people think about reporting or microaggressions or diversity, it's very quick to jump to this idea of everything's going to become a problem rather than actually, no, we're all here collectively looking for solutions. And so we spend quite a lot of time really reassuring people as to how this technology works, how it's gonna be effective for managers and people team and I think that's definitely a really important kind of foundational step. I think the second piece that I would say is around the confidence then, which is we also then see lots of managers who are really bought in, who want to get involved, but who perhaps don't feel hugely well versed in a lot of this conversation.

Rosie: Because I mean... And I think we even feel that sometimes it's moving so quickly and so fast, some of the changes and developments here and what we expect in a workplace that actually being really confident, particularly perhaps where there are generations coming in who are very well versed and far more familiar with a lot of these kind of perhaps concepts and ideas than perhaps some of the more senior or managers. There's a broad assumption there, but it's definitely a trend that we sometimes see. So one thing again that we really look at with a platform is looking at how we can take some of that fear away from managers who want to do the right thing, but are perhaps worried that in trying to do the right thing, they might do the wrong thing by providing them with content nudges suggested actions so that they can kind of take some of those smaller steps with a bit more... Yeah. Ultimately kind of confidence behind that. And I think that takes away some of that fear again, of just people feeling that they might do the wrong thing inadvertently and then end up kind of creating more of a problem.

Rosie: And I think finally... And this is a piece that I would like to see organizations go further on personally, but there's definitely a piece around how we incentivize managers to do this. Because I think you're right, they're often very squeezed, they're often under enormous pressure with their day job. And if you are not incentivizing managers to be really responsible for their teams, their wellbeing, their retention, not just perhaps the productivity, even though we obviously know that the two are very connected, it can be difficult for managers to fully buy into why they're prioritizing this. And we definitely with some of our clients are seeing a shift towards that where there is either in manager performance reviews or as part of their bonus or remuneration a recognition of this work and the importance of this work as well. And I think that that is definitely something where organizations can go further on that.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. So we've covered so much in this episode already. Obviously you both have got extensive knowledge in developing the InChorus platform, and we've talked about the need to consolidate and simplify things in order to drive the right decision making in the organization to really focus in on insights and automation, rather than just trying to go out and get more data, this needs to focus on purpose as well. And then also this final discussion that we've had around really engaging managers and helping get them on site to really drive this in the organization. What do you believe are the key actions that chief people officers should be focusing on next based on the conversation that we've had so far today? 

Raj: I think it's coming back to those top tips that we spoke about earlier and kind of an open I guess audit around the work they've done today. I feel oftentimes all of us feel like we have invested so much in the initiative and tools and programs that we roll out that we feel we have to defend them with our lives. And I think really that the world of work has changed so much that it really is a far more open and honest audit that needs to occur. And whether that takes the form of a conversation internally, externally, I think that our number one tip is reassess where you are on all of those pillars that we spoke about earlier. So that's the text that, the data that you are capturing and finally where you are in terms of working towards driving a solid culture that underpins the performance and not one that's just grounded in slightly shallower perks. I think that's the... I would echo that message.

Toby Mildon: And Rosie, what would your advice be? What should be top of the list for a Chief People Officer based on today's conversation? 

Rosie: Yeah, I would really just add to Raj's list this idea again, of really thinking about... For me, really thinking about action. The start point needs to be, "Okay, what actions am I wanting to take back and what is almost then the minimum [laughter] data process that I need to get that?" And really thinking about how you are tying up that loop, because I think it's just very easy and I know we've spoken about it, but to kinda formulate that data collection and have the, "Well, what am I doing about it as a bit of an afterthought?" And I think that in this kind of, I guess economy that's looking for more and more efficiency and a streamlined process, thinking back engineering from that point of action and who needs to be empowered to really thinking about how that gets to the managers, how these people are supported, and I guess auditing the tools and processes through that lens is something that I would encourage.

Toby Mildon: Cool. And how are both of you able to help a Chief People Officer with these actions or the things that we've talked about so far today? 

Raj: I think the key area, our product essentially has focused on how we equip organizations for a progressive new world, which embeds culture values and EDI principles at its core without making that incredibly difficult with too many tools and too many data sets and too many training sessions that pull people away from core work. And which we've really focused on how we embed simplicity and best practice into the existing workflow rather than taking people away from it. We have a very strong belief that the way that our platform operates is solving for some of the challenges that we spoke about at the very outset of the podcast. Using one tool that does four or five things really well, but doesn't give you almost pointless in-actionable bells and whistles is the way to go here. And we've, from the very outset, only focused on action. Both of our backgrounds are very much tech driven. And then we come at the world of, and the work of HR and its processes slightly differently. And that's given us a far more clarity about what work should be done, jobs to be done, essentially. And which ones sometimes backfire. Intentions are great and too many initiatives and programs get rolled out because they're the right acoustics, but they backfire because you're then not seeing them through. So yeah a lot of the challenges that we've spoken about are addressed very well. Yeah. The tool is a manifestation of our beliefs, if you like.

Toby Mildon: And Rosie your thoughts, how does InChorus help our Chief People Officers take action on the stuff that we've talked about today? 

Rosie: Yes, I think really I would echo a lot of Raj's points. Where we are really focused is on creating effective channels for employees so that this tool is used in the first place, because obviously there is a problem that sits alongside having too much data, which is not having enough data because you're paying for expensive tools that actually aren't used, which is definitely something we see around perhaps more of the reporting processes. So perhaps some more serious issues. Those mechanisms actually are underused in a way that perhaps isn't necessarily true engagement surveys. It's really thinking about making sure that employees have all of those channels, but then that the data that is coming from those is aggregated in one place. And I know we keep saying that point today, we're a bit of a kind of keep beating the drum on it, but there is so much additional insight that comes from being able to overlay disparate data sources and focusing on doing that directs people, leaders much quicker to actionable insights. And our platform is really designed to do that, designed to try and cut through essentially noise to focus on here are two or three key priorities, and then here is the action that can be taken. And stitching that together is something that we're doing that is quite different at the moment. And I believe we can help that.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. If the person listening to us right now wants to reach out to both of you, maybe pick your brains about data in their own organization and how your platform could help them, what should they do? 

Rosie: Well, first of all, definitely check out our website, which is Inchorus.org, www.inchorus.org. And there is the opportunity to reach out to Raj or myself directly to have a chat and to learn more or even to book a demo to look at the product in more detail if you're interested. The other thing is really do sign up to our newsletter, which again, you can find on our website. But that goes out regularly with lots of quick tips conversations, all kind of observations from what's happening across the sector and recommendations there. And I guess secondly, we are actually gonna be having a real push around adding content and resources to our website. So definitely keep eyes on that as well.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, thank you both for joining me today. It's been really great to catch up with you again. And it's always great to hear how your product is evolving as you work with Chief People Officers and act on their feedback and address the challenges that they are facing in the real world because businesses over the last few years have been through a very difficult time. They've had to respond to the pandemic, the economic downturn and things like that. It's great to talk to a business that is so responsive to its client's needs.

Rosie: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks so much, Toby. Really enjoyed it.

Raj: Yeah, thank you Toby. Pleasure as ever.

Raj: You're very welcome. You're very welcome. And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. Hopefully you've taken away some really interesting information or advice from Rosie and Raj that you can apply back in your own organization. Maybe it's the need to do an audit, looking at the technology that you are using and the data that you're collecting to really think about how you can consolidate things and simplify things. Maybe it's a focus on getting insights and automation rather than going out and getting more data. Maybe it's the need to focus on purpose rather than perks and some good tips on how you can engage your managers so that you can sort of permeate this throughout your organization. There's plenty of information and advice there that we've shared with you. Hopefully that's been useful and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast, which will be coming up very soon. Until then, take good care of yourself.

Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website @mildon.co.uk.