Positively Purple

Positively Purple is the title of the new book by Kate Nash, founder of PurpleSpace. Kate sat down with me to talk about the book and her work on disability inclusion in the workplace.

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Transcript

S?: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there. Thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Podcast. I'm Toby Mildon, and I'm really excited to be joined by today's guest, Kate Nash. Now this is Kate's second appearance on the podcast, and I'm gonna be talking to her about the release of her new book Positively Purple. And it's worth you going back and checking out her first interview where we talked about her first book which was Secrets and Big News, and we covered other stuff as well. Now I've known Kate for a very long time. When I was working at the BBC, I used to run the Disabled Staff Network, and Kate was a phenomenal mentor for me at the time in trying to run a really effective disability network at the BBC. And she's been a mentor ever since. And we keep in touch and we collaborate on things. And also she is the founder and the chief exec of PurpleSpace. Now, PurpleSpace is an organisation that helps organisations set up and run effective disability networks amongst other things.

Toby Mildon: They are a great partner if you are trying to increase disability inclusion within your organisation. So in this episode, I'm gonna be talking to Kate about her new book which is called Positively Purple: Build an Inclusive World Where People with Disabilities Can Flourish. Now, most employers will have a workforce where at least 10% of their people have a visible or invisible disability, and 86% of all disabled people acquire their disability during the course of their working lives. So the big question is how can businesses create strategies and a company culture that includes all staff? So Kate, it's wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me.

Kate Nash: Huge pleasure Toby. It's lovely to be with you again. Wonderful.

Toby Mildon: So I have got so many burning questions for you. As always, these episodes are usually 20 minutes or 30 minutes long so somebody can listen to it on their commute to work or on the tube or something like that. But these are really really critical questions. And I mean, in your book, you discussed sharing personal information for the first time. The employers that I work with often tell me that they want more data about disabilities in their organisation. So do we need to encourage people to share information about their disabilities? 

Kate Nash: I would say absolutely yes, but not for its own sake. You know that wonderful expression, Toby, that if you want happiness in your life, you should look the other way. And so it is the same when it comes to getting good data about the numbers of people with disabilities that you employ. And what I mean by that, it's about engendering trust within your organisation. People with disabilities are no exception in terms of sharing personal information. And we look for clues that we are to be welcomed, to be celebrated, to be accommodated, etcetera. So it's about what employers can do to signal that they are honourable organisations, whether it's storytelling campaigns, whether it's creating employee resource groups, whether it's having an easy to use, elegant, very visible workplace adjustment policy and process. So definitely encourage people to be who they are.

Kate Nash: Definitely encourage people to bring their authentic selves to work. But you know many of us have experienced challenges in our life, and often it's other people's stuff as well as inelegant policies that gets in the way. So you have to do the activities that will make it easier for people to share data, either formally or informally. But in terms to your question, yes, absolutely, I think it's proper for employers to encourage their people to be who they are.

Toby Mildon: And somebody who was cleverer than me said that what gets measured gets managed. And unless we know how many people we've got in the organisation and whether that's representative of our society or not, and what the experience of those people is, then we don't know whether we're gonna be making any improvements or not. Is that what you think as well? 

Kate Nash: 100% Toby, yes. We don't see too many organisations looking to create a hit list of people to target and exit. I say that with a little jest in my voice because sharing data is often, it's a privilege that you offer others. But as you say, Toby, the majority of employers want to deliver a strategic plan when it comes to building an inclusive and accessible workplace and environment. And therefore it makes it easier to have really good data. So yeah, absolutely. It's about sharing with people why you want that data, delivering against that, and then telling people what you did with that data.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. And the key word that you used was trust. And a lot of people are anxious about sharing personal information about their disability or health conditions because they're worried about who's going to access that data, whether that data could be used against them potentially. Is that what you come across as well? 

Kate Nash: Yes, absolutely. You know, people can take a wee while to make sense of a disability. I mean, some of us have had a disability for a very long time before work or at birth, etcetera. But as you say, anything between 83 to 86% of all disabled people are individuals who have acquired that disability or health condition through the course of their working lives. And that means it takes sometimes a wee while to make sense of that life experience, to feel good about it, to learn sometimes about how to do things differently. And it's not a comfortable ride so it, therefore, takes us a while before we feel well versed to share that with others around us particularly in places where we want to be performing at our best. And that's work. None of us want to be seen as anything than just delivering at work. So it's quite a sophisticated dynamic that has to be created in the workplace.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. So, in your book you discussed the abuse of power in your chapter on nature, nurture and the new reality. Would you mind telling me a bit more about that? 

Kate Nash: Yes. It's that section that you mentioned Toby is a really... It's a specific example of a personal, physical example of somebody who experienced sexual abuse at a hospital that I went to many years ago, a fellow patient. So although I didn't share her experience, she was a fellow traveller and she was unflinching in her sharing her story. And it serves... The reason why it's in the book is, it serves as a reminder of how sometimes susceptible we can be if we don't take steps to nurture our worth. So, as a disabled woman, quite often we can be in more positions where that abuse of power can be played out.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Kate Nash: And we do hear that. The steady low grade bitrate of stories of people who do experience, unfortunately, an abuse of power. We often hear about bullying in the workplace, and we don't often segment that when it comes to people with disabilities. So yeah, it's a powerful story. It's not a comfortable story in the book, but I found it necessary just to call out sometimes that necessity we have to really build our worth and to reflect sometimes about why we don't stand up, and why sometimes we don't feel able to be out loud and proud about our experiences.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. And sometimes that abuse of power can be really big like sexual harassment and bullying in the workplace. But, what happens probably more often and on a day to day basis is the micro aggressions and the micro behaviours, those small bits of behaviour that undermine you and then it ends up having this compound effect. Because if you're on the receiving end of those micro aggressions, you end up questioning yourself, "Is there something wrong with me here?" Rather than it's the behaviour of the colleagues or the culture that somebody's working in.

Kate Nash: Oh, that's so true Toby. We've often talked about this before. That wonderful expression, challenging as it is around the soft bigotry of low expectation. Now not a lot of our community will choose deliberately not to use the language of microaggressions because they don't see what we experience sometimes as an aggressive act.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Kate Nash: And that's what's so profound about this notion. That the pity can be one of the most corrosive of human emotions that we experience of others, and it can have a debilitating effect on our feelings of worth and value and talent and our potential to get ahead of work.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Kate Nash: So my advice to many networks, hundreds and thousands of employees with disability if we work with, and our wonderful allies, is just to notice, I suppose, that the interplay of power at work. Yeah.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. This leads naturally onto something else that you say in your book. So in one of your other chapters, you discussed the soft bigotry of low expectations, and you say that your skills are skills irrespective of disability, and that really resonated with me. So in light of this, what do you recommend employers should be considering? 

Kate Nash: Mostly, it's about keeping an open mind, Toby. I think anybody who might have direct personal experience of disability or even indirect, whether it's a father or a mother or a child, or a grandparent or a sibling or a best friend, we make sense of the world by interacting with the experiences of others. But it doesn't mean to say we get it all right. So my advice is always to keep an open mind and not to make assumptions about people's lives, however challenge we might present. Whether that's about how we look and sound and walk, it's about how we might speak. It's about how we absorb and communicate. There are so many manifestations of disability that can so deeply challenge others about their views of talent. And I tell some funny stories in the books, some of the ironic stories.

Kate Nash: There's one where I was being interviewed and I was trying to be absolutely brilliant at this interview. And I think I was doing a pretty fine job of demonstrating my skills, but the panel was having none of it because at that stage I was waiting, I think, for another hip replacement or knee replacement, and I walked with a stick or a crotch and the panel were frustrated because I was asking, answering the questions too well, perhaps. [laughter] And one of them said, "Well, what can't you do?" In some frustration. And of course, I avoided the judicious use of sarcasm. Like, I can't scuba dive and I can't speak [laughter] Chinese Mandarin, or I can't write... Walk the tight trope because there are a myriad of things that we cannot do as human beings, disabled or non-disabled. So my best advice is just keep an open mind.

Toby Mildon: I think you and I have got a similar sense of humour and I'm usually very sarcastic when I'm in situations like that. So, yeah.

Kate Nash: It can often go down a treat. Some people do a double take. It can be a bit naughty, a bit provocative. And I tell another story of the wonderful, great, late James Partridge in his book, last year, Face It, where he too was asked a question at interview. He'd had surgery, corrective surgery for his facial disfigurement. And at the end of this interview that he was doing so well, he was asked, "Are you expecting to have any more surgery Mr. Partridge?" And he was shocked. And he kind of ignored it, and then he waded back in and said, "Well, do you think I need it?" The good news story is, a little while later, he got the letter, and he'd got the job. And that was 'cause he, perhaps, stood up and pushed back.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Kate Nash: Although that might have provoked the panel, they had the wherewithal to notice that this man was not having any of it. So yeah, it's about keeping an open mind, Toby. And for us, it's about being prepared to be a little out, loud and proud about our experiences.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. Like one of my diversity and inclusion heroes is Vernā Myers, who's now the head of Diversity and Inclusion at Netflix. And she's a lawyer by background. And she's over in the States. And she's done a couple of really good TED Talks. And one of her TED Talks, I think it's called Leaning Into Our Biases, she says that biases are stories that we make up about people before we get to know them. And I just think it's so simple and easy to understand, and it's about those assumptions or presumptions that we make about people, about what they can and can't do. And as a disabled person myself, I've had those situations where people have assumed that I can't do something, when in fact I can do it, and I'm very good at doing it.

Kate Nash: It's wonderful. Great call. I love it.

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S?: If your company has a great diversity and inclusion strategy, if your organisation has an amazing work culture where productivity is peaking, if the best talent in your industry are working for you, if all your employees are happy and feel included, then feel free to skip this message for about 30 seconds and continue listening to the podcast interview with Toby. But if you feel that your company is lacking in any one of these areas, your employer reputation is taking a hit. Toby Mildon is one of the UK's leading diversity and inclusion experts who has helped top companies like Deloitte, the BBC, Sony Pictures, and Centrica, as well as numerous scale-up businesses who want an outstanding inclusive culture. To go further in your diversity and inclusion journey, log on to Toby's webinar at www.mildon.co.uk/free-webinar to accelerate your company's diversity and inclusion strategy in 40 minutes. Thanks for listening. And now back to the podcast interview with Toby.

Toby Mildon: When you were growing up, Kate, what did you want to be, and who were the role models that you were looking up to? 

Kate Nash: Do you know, back in the day, as a teenager, as a youngster, I loved fashion. I loved design. My mum was a fantastic dressmaker. And she worked with Frank Usher, and she used to make beautiful creations. But I acquired juvenile chronic arthritis at 15, and one of the manifests, one of the very many manifestations of that is that it changed the shape of my hands and the strength of my hands and I experienced significant pain. So that was not gonna happen. So I had to think quickly, what did I want to deliver in this world? So it took a while. But I have to say I was always fascinated, after my onset of disability, of how other people often changed their impressions of what people with disabilities can do. So that led me into thinking about politics, and it led me into thinking about how you change the world, how you... What does it take to drive change? 

Kate Nash: Of course, it's often about legislation and regulation, but it's often about sharing very difficult truths about people's lives. So role models for me were, I was looking at history. I looked at history, whether it was Rosa Parks or those individuals who have changed the world through stories. And although I don't profess, and didn't aspire necessarily to be somebody of remarkable as someone like a Rosa Parks, I was deeply moved by the knowledge that one person can change the world. So yes, I was looking at the budding politicians of the age, the Jane Campbells of this world and the Colin Lows and the Rachel Hursts, and indeed youngsters like the Liz Carrs and the Barbara Lisickis. For me, the role models were those individuals who were prepared to call out the inadequacies of systems, the inadequacies of legislation, the inadequacies of our lives, so that we can get our wiggle on. But I constantly collect role models. You are one of them, Mr. Mildon.

Toby Mildon: Aww, and you're my role model. So we are... What's the word for that? Co-role models? [chuckle]

Kate Nash: Fellow travellers.

Toby Mildon: Fellow travellers. That's brilliant. The other interesting thing I took away from your book is that, until I saw your book, and I didn't think that disability was a political issue. And that's something that you talk about in your book. Would you mind telling us a bit more about that? 

Kate Nash: Yes. So yes, you're right, the story Positively Purple is primarily autobiographical. But it's the story of PurpleSpace. It's the story of PurpleLightUp. And it's chock-full of lessons to learn for both employers and employees. And in terms of politics of disability, well, politics is nothing but the dynamic of power. And it's about who has power. It's about how, as a people, we spend money on things. It's how we spend our taxes. It's how we spend our energy and our time and our thinking and our love and our compassion. So politics for me, is a hugely political experience. I do see myself as a political animal with a small team.

Kate Nash: And have worked in a number of NGOs, non-government organisations to support the process of securing both legislative and regulatory reform, not just in the UK but across the world. So, although I choose very deliberately not to be a politically aligned with a party, I do believe very deeply that disability is a political experience and that money talks. And therefore the reason why PurpleSpace had to come about is because people in work, people with disabilities in work needed to notice their economic contribution. Day in and day out, thousands, millions of us are working every single day.

Kate Nash: And yes, there are many of us who can't get that first job or are very far away from the job's market for different reasons. But disability is a deeply political experience. And I do see within the PurpleSpace community, as I say, a soft pay, a good number of people who have been politicised to understand how they can lend their talent, how they can lend their skill, how they can lend their positions of seniority. We keep hearing that there is not enough C-suite leaders with a disability. That's largely true. But there is a caveat that's changing. And we have to break this narrative of keep saying there's not enough, because while there isn't, and I do talk about that in the book, we can't keep talking down about our experiences. We have to talk them up.

Toby Mildon: At that C-suite level as well, we see disability come about with age and we've got an aging workforce. So, naturally we are to expect people to acquire their disabilities with age if they're staying in the workplace for longer. And I've found it really interesting 'cause I've worked with senior leaders, chief executives and directors of companies, and some of them have hidden their disability from their colleagues. I worked with one guy, really senior leader in a business, and he had hearing difficulties in one ear. And used hearing aids. He really went out of his way to try and hide the hearing aids from his colleagues. And it was becoming an issue for him. He was struggling to participate in online meetings, like Zoom calls and things like that because he was having difficulty hearing what people were saying, but he was really going out of his way to hide it from his colleagues.

Kate Nash: It is such a common experience, Toby. I think that's changing. I think it is changing, but it does take, you know, in my mind, these networks employee resource group networks and business resource group networks, affinity groups, special interest groups, they're all called something slightly different wherever you look across the world. But it's these networks and cross-organisations, this networking between employees of disability within different companies that is starting to make it easier even for the C-suite leaders with disability to be a little bit more sassy in how they present to the world.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. 'Cause you, I mean, you talk about the importance of building a network around you as a disabled person as well. So, what can employers do to help their disabled staff develop their networks? 

Kate Nash: A couple of things. I think for those who have not yet considered the value of the disabled employee resource group is to do that quickly, and to do that deeply. These are no longer nice to haves. PurpleSpace wrote a publication last year called Priceless. And we called out that they're no longer a kind of additional extra, you know, you've worked with many organisations, you've shared your experience with BBC and there are many organisations who now don't see this as a kind of nice to have, but setting up a disability employee resource group is one of the most powerful instruments of change because they are collections of ideas, of passion, of energy. And so long as their governance, I suppose, is aligned to the overall objectives, the overall DEI objectives of the business, they can be a fantastic magnet for the other individuals who want to be allies, et cetera.

Kate Nash: So what I'd say make space for networks, I'd say invest in those networks. I'd say make sure that C-suite leaders are plugged into those networks where they really motor, they tend to be networks that have really passionate seniors C-suite leaders. You see that in GSK, you see that in Google, you see that in Twitter, you see that at Accenture, you see that at the HSBC, there are millions out there now that are really motoring because the connection between the ERG and the chief executive or the C-suite leader is tied. And then, I suppose the only other thing I would say, there are some organisations that are possibly just too small to warrant a network. And if that's the case, I would encourage those organisations just to make it easier for their people with disabilities to access other types of support. Is it about partnering with an external reputable NGO, for example? There are lots of impairment specific organisations or disability rights in the UK, there's lots that are out there. But, you know, enabling people to meet, connect with the disabled thought leaders out there, I think is one of the most powerful things they can do.

Toby Mildon: In terms of making changes in an organisation, I know that one of the biggest challenges around disability inclusion is a lack of budget and resources and people being really, really stretched with their time. So when budgets and resources are limited, is it possible to make a big impact? 

Kate Nash: Yes, I would say so. Storytelling campaigns, for example, are one of the most well known activities within a disability ERG, it's never once and done. It's not a project, this is being, having the wherewithal to create a really steady bitrate of great internal stories that you then externalise, can be one of the most powerful things you can do. And that doesn't have to be a costly affair, Toby, as we know, it only takes maybe five individuals to do some short videos as long as you're captioning and you're doing that in a way that's accessible. And as long as you have your organisation's blessing, then why not just five of you team up, get together on International Day of Persons with Disabilities Purple Light Up, and share some stories about how you've succeeded within your company? It can be as cheap as chips [chuckle] in order to make a really big difference, and a really big splash about how the company's motoring. So yes, it takes a bit of budget, networks can't work on fresh air and enthusiasm. It's unfair to suggest that they can, so invest a bit, but you don't have to worry about using your budget wisely and effectively if it's small.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. And you've mentioned Purple Light Up which is a campaign that you have spearheaded for a number of years, and it's definitely worth linking any of your kind of internal disability activities with the Purple Light Up campaign that happens each year. So yeah, Google Purple Light Up and go on Kate's website PurpleSpace. But also we've got the United Nations International Date of Disabled People, which is on the 3rd of December. And again, that's another key date to put in the diary and, yeah, so there's a couple of dates there that you can use certainly as a really good springboard for disability.

Kate Nash: They're the same date Toby, we've made it easier.

Toby Mildon: Oh, they're the same date? 

Kate Nash: Yeah, they're the same date. [chuckle] And so Purple Light Up is very much aligned and it's our mark of respect to International Day, so yeah, as you say get involved.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Now, just before we kind of wrap up this conversation, can you offer any advice to the futurists listening to us today? 

Kate Nash: Oh, yes. I would say get excited, get passionate, get involved. We all have a role, I think, in individual, as individuals, as citizens in the world to look out for our contemporaries who may experience disability or life experience that, if push they may suggest they prefer not to have, and are struggling to make sense of that and the identity. So we all have a role to play in this. So the advice would be to get impatient, notice where there are gaps or clunky systems within your place of work, and that might be the workplace adjustment process, it might be the recruitment data, maybe your tech systems. So I would say roll your sleeves up, get impatient, spot one thing that you can do, do it Well.

Toby Mildon: That's brilliant advice. Before we go, how can the person listening to us today get a copy of your book Positively Purple, and also how can they learn more about what you do in PurpleSpace and how you can help organisations with their disability inclusion agenda? 

Kate Nash: Two things. So Positively Purple, it's been published by Kogan Page, so if you hit their website, but it will be out in all good bookshops, and all the usual avenues. So if you've got a favourite site that you would normally purchase your books then go to that site, and it will be there, I promise. In terms of PurpleSpace well, just check out our website, www.purplespace.org, and there'll be details about everything that we do. As well as the book Purple Light Up, and the activities that we support our members with. So yeah, and thank you Toby for this.

Toby Mildon: You're very welcome. And well thank you Kate for joining us for a second time on this podcast, it's always great to chat with you. I always learn so much from you and hopefully the person listening to us today has learned some really invaluable insights that they can take back to their own organisation and make a real dent in their own business. So thank you for sharing that knowledge and experience with us.

Kate Nash: Real pleasure. Thank you.

Toby Mildon: And thank you for tuning into this episode with Kate and I, hopefully, as I said, you've taken away some really interesting insights and actions that you can put into place in your own organisation. It is worth getting a copy of Kate's book, Positively Purple, and also reaching out to Kate and her team at PurpleSpace website. So until the next episode of the podcast comes along, I hope you have a wonderful time, continue to make a positive impact on diversity and inclusion in your workplace. And take care, see you soon. Thank you.

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S?: Thank you for listening to The Inclusive Growth Show, for further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.